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Re: Dacians

just read this about the Flax

'Some samples have blood grooves and engravings. The shorter variant was called “Sica” (in the Dacian language) and the long one (with an average length between 0.60-0.70 m) was called FALX (in latin language). The Falx was curved towards the front third, which made it especially effective against the enemy legs and ligaments.'

So maybe this weapon is the Sica? But at the average lenght that this article gives a well trained cavalry man would be able to master such a weapon,

The full article that I took this from is here
http://www.enciclopedia-dacica.ro/ranistorum/site_eng/arma.html

As you will see their is a picture of a guy with a reproduction of the Falx and it does not look that large. Lets say no more unwieldly than the medieval long sword used by Knights on horseback

sica

Hi Noel.

Sica, this curved knife-sword, was common in the thracian world, of which the dacians were the northern part of. Gladiators were symbolicaly armed and named. One of them, the sicarius, had this weapon,together with a small round shield and a thracian helmet.
And then there was the name of the brigands, who attacked the ancient highways, which was: sicarii, because they were usualy armed with a curved knife.

Radu

Re: Dacians

Very nice. They'll go well with the Hat fellows.
I have my Dacians as a default painting project: when I finish something I usually paint a few of the HaT Dacians as a change.
The brightly patterned clothing is like nothing else.
donald

Re: Dacians

They do look nice!
I'm also not sure about the falx weilded from horse-back, but I suppose not impossible. It would be a formidable weapon if the rider is skillful.

Can't wait for the foot warriors!

Re: Re: Dacians

a draco-standard would be a nice addtion to the set. I.m hopin for such one.

please Strelets, redo what can be rectified

I am very pleased with Strelets' latest releases, but not this time, due to historical inaccuracies. These could be attributed to a sparcity in English-written literature on dacians. The Osprey title on Rome's Enemies: dacians (together with germans) is sketchy, describing more the Getae warriors that would have fought Alexander the Great in his expedition across the Danube. One plate showes a dacian cavalrymen, and should have provided insiration.

The Daco-Getae where the same people, with the same culture and language, north thracian. Getae was the greek name, and described more the population on the northdanubian plains. Dacians was the roman name, describing more the civilization they fought, with the capital in the Western Carpatians. In both dacian campaigns, Trajan went right fot the capital, twice (once for each campaign) being a decisive battle at Tappae (exact location still debated), which was a pass. Otherwise, most of the fighting, as depicted on Trajan's column, was done by the auxilia, more suitable for such a terrain.

Now to the cavalry:
Dacian cavalry was never a shock arm. Its missions were scouting, harassing and pursuit, what we now call light cavalry missions. The mail clad cavalry on Trajan's column represents sarmatians, dacian allies. None of the Strelets horseriders has a bow, although this would have been the most frequent cavalry weapon. Even if the set would represent the kings bodyguard, thus more heavily armed horsemen, there are still flaws. The falx, or sica, they are armed with, was never a cavalry weapon. In the age before stirrups, it was difficult to use a lance, and impossible to use a falx. However, I guess this could be easily corrected, with cutting the long handle of the falx, to make it resamble a curved sword, with a normal handgrip, as used by the dacians. Then, the carnyx one of the horsemen is blowing, is a celtic instrument used for signaling. There is no evidence that the dacians used it too, however much the interference between the celtic and daian civilization was. The draco is well known to have been a dacian standard, which also made appreciable noise when a stream of air was forced through the opened mouth of the draco, either by placing it against the wind, or running with it (makes a definite "follow me", doesn't it?). Now, the weirdest thing is the banner. Such a design would not be seen for several more centuries in the romanian space, until the advent of the byzantine empire.
If the set would depict the kings bodyguard, the horsemen would have to be dressed-up (no bare-chested bastarnae here), including the cap that marks them as noblemen, and some if not all wear scale armour. If they are scouts, bows are mandatory.

If you Strelets, will not redo at least some of my suggestions, I will have to convert a lot. It is that the form and design of the shields, and their clothing, marks them quite well as dacians, and making them quite inappropiate for other populations. It would be hard to convert these horsemen to celts or germans (or even goths, thracians....), but well, not impossible.

regards,

radu

Re: please Strelets, redo what can be rectified

Dear Radu,

two-handed falxes will be substituted.
The images of the amended figures will be published soon.
Best regards,

Strelets

Re: Re: please Strelets, redo what can be rectified

Thanks for listening, Strelets!

thanks, Strelets

I am sorry that you have to go through that trouble. I know that you always do your research, to give us the most historicaly accurate figures you can. I suppose you used the page on this site:

http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa//armata_daca/armamentul.htm

for the banner and carnyx in your set. Unfortunately, the site is in romanian only, and while the text is good enough, the images are sometimes very generic, covering also other topics, which are linked in blue in the text - like populations the dacians interacted with: goths, bastarnae, sarmatians, celts...

For the infantry, don't forget to include many bowmen and slingers. Then again, could some bows and quivers be added to the horsemen?

Thanks again for beeing such a wonderful Santa,

Radu

Re: please Strelets, redo what can be rectified

Hi, Radu,
your post was enlightening.Thank you.
Do you have any links where I can read up on the Dacians? Can't say I know much about them.
regards, donald

about dacians

It is a bit sad that there are so few sites in English dealing with the dacians. If you google.ro you get 6000+ entries when looking for "dacii falx". I haven't gone through them, though, as the literature I've got on dacians is good, but unfortunately only in romanian.
On the romanian modelism site www.cartula.net there is a very good and academic review of Hat's dacians. You guessed it: only in romanian.
The site www.worldwar2.ro is also in English, and one of the best sites on the romanian army in WW2. It has also a forum, in English only. While most of the topics are about WW II, there is also a section on ancients, with a long thread on dacians, with links to many sites. I hadn't had time lately to check all the diferent fora, but this is a definite must for any WW II buff. There were also contributions from Osprey authors and other well-known military historians.

Cheers,

Radu

Re: Dacians

Use of the two handed falx by horsemen is probarbly not possible... there does not appear to be any evidence for this...
Single handed falx is not a problem although smaller examples then those on the masters with shorter handles..

Wiki....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx

Trajans coloumn.....falx....

http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/6.16.h.jpg

http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/2.33.h.jpg

look here for the roman days 2003...

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/rdays.html

I think this pic puts the "Experiment" in Perspective

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/soup.jpg

Cheers

Re: Re: Dacians

For sure, Mounted Falxmen, NO WAY!

Would do better to put a Kontos bearing Sarmation
in the mix (with bow).

Still, it's good to get Mounted Dacians!

Re: Dacians

Hi Donald the wiki has a fairly good entry for Dacia see also Dacian wars....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Tapae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan%27s_Dacian_Wars

Cheers

Re: Re: Dacians

Thanks, mate.
donald

Dacian Archers

This image of Trajans column shows dacian archers one at least seems to have a recurve compound bow, note the defenders look like auxiliarys..
Most weapons on the coloumn were bronze and were removed at some point in the past...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/RomansoldiersvsDacianwarriors.jpg

heres a link to Diurpaneus-Decebalus "the brave one"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decebalus

the death of Decealus notice the sickle shaped knife he uses to cut his own throat

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Decebalus_-_Traianus_-_Bucharest.jpg

Cheers

Burebista perhaps the greatest Dacian king

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista

Cheers

Dacians on Trajans Column

Here you will find many images of the dacian armies on Trajans column.....

http://www.stoa.org/trajan/trajanSearch.cgi

The main site

http://www.stoa.org/trajan/index.html


Cheers

Re: Dacians

unfortunatly the link to the search engine doesnt work go to the main page then to search put dacian in the search field to come up with 100+ images of dacians on trajans column

http://www.stoa.org/trajan/index.html

Cheers

eggheads

Dear Dacianistas

The BBC tv high brow quiz, Eggheads, recently had a Dacian question for the resident experts. Needless to say they got it right without hesitation. So did I. They must contribute to or read the Strelets forum.

David

Dacian Armour

It appears that mail was well know among the dacian elite one such find from Hunedoara consisted of a large mass of mail cut in small pieces the rings were riveted and very fine 5-6mm diameter... the burial also included a curved sickle knife, spear head shield boss(umbo)and horse bridle, this is not an isolated case there are many more...

Cheers

Re: Dacian Armour

It's nice to have some Dacian nobility, to lead the warriors into battle. Would someone consider to give us a Dacian King as well?

Here is a picture of the king's helmet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Royal_Dacian_Helmet_Cotofenesti.jpg

I don't expect Strelets to do an entirely new set fo this, but perhaps Valdemar could step up to the plate and give us a Dacian King.

Re: Dacians

The Dacian cavalry with falx reminded me of an article I once read about American Civil War cavalry saber drill, which commented that it probably resulted in a lot of one-eared horses...

Re: Re: Dacians

Mike,
I've just finished reading the chapter on ACW cavalry tactics and weapons in Brent Nosworthy's "Bloody Crucible of Courage". Some commanders apparently wanted lances issued, while others - mainly Confederate - recommended shotguns for close-quarters action. Sabers were pretty useless in closely-wooded country. The chapter also tells a great tale of conventionally-trained Union regular troopers being unable to cope with a left-handed Reb cavalryman in one of the rare saber v saber fights.