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Re: Re: ... And What Is The Next S*R famous Napoleonic Winter Battle Name ???

THe Beresina crossing would do well- if memory serves on the west bank the remains of the French heavy cavalry managed to cross and sweep away Tchitchagov's forces. Definitely the sort of environment to wear a cloak!


Hi, Dave,
At Eylau the French & Russians battled in freezing weather including a snow storm.
At one point an entire French Corps, blinded by snow, marched into a Russian Grand battery & was annihilated.
It also included one of the greatest cavalry charges, led by Murat. The cuirassiers probably wore cloaks.
In 1807, a bit earlier than Borodino.
cheers, donald

Re: The weather before Borodino(Moskowa)

Nice research Steve!

Here is a picture of the weather conditions during the battle of Borodino. Clearly it's raining and people wear coats.

same picture in better resolution

Re: same picture in better resolution

Awesome and such realistic pictures ... Thank you, thank you, thank, you !!!

Talk again soon, More Napoleonics, please !!!

cloak and dagger stuff eh ?

Re: Re: The weather before Borodino(Moskowa)

During the battle? Where do you see people figthing?

I think this picture is after Borodino battle, not during and not before.

Why not before, because there are corpses lying, 1st.

Why not during the battle, because there no evidence that people are fighting, 2nd.

I am sure that during any day of period fall of 1812-winter of 1813. So no new theory here, because Borodino corpses were not retired during all these period. So it could be 1 or 2 or several days after the battle. And it could rain, but not during Borodino battle, because in several memories says it was sunny day.

Dont trust a lot to pictures, which were paint by people who dont know a lot of uniforms and military history, and some of these people just paint what they think is beautiful, but not real.


Yevgen Chernov

Re: Re: Re: The weather before Borodino(Moskowa)

That's true, there are for example many drawings of the 1814 campaign were all the French soldiers wear the pre-1812 uniform. Mistakes are often made.



Re: Re: Re: The weather during the battle of Borodino(Moskowa)

Again, I will provide quotes from thee book "La Grande Armee"

"The weather: from the various accounts which do not agree wholly, one may deduce that it was damp and then cold and rainy on the 5th and 6th; on the 7th it was clear at first (Napolean had spoken of an Austerlitz sun) and then grey, rainy and cold. Page 317

"The sky lightened in the east, that is behind the Russians. When the sun rose it blinded for a while but was soon behind the clouds. An unpleasent wind got up, but it masked the enemy's view by blowing clouds of dust into his face - the dust would be succeeded by cannon smoke." Page 319

By these accounts this was no summer battle.


Re: Re: Re: Re: The weather during the battle of Borodino(Moskowa)

Hi guys,

the date of the plate is wrong. This painting if from Faber du Faurs series about the 1812 campaign. The original is named "On the battlefield of Borodino on the 17th of September." 10 Days after the battle.

As for the French uniforms, nearly 80% of the French infantry in the 1812-1814 campaigns wore the old pre-1812 uniform. Take a look at contemporary sources. For example the Freiberger manuscript shows 14 French infantrymen 1813. Just one of them has the Bardin regulation uniform. Old uniforms in Paris 1814 are absolutely ok.


qualify your book quotes steve

Who actually was the source of the quotes.Page number 319 etc doesnt mean anything to me. Which officer or soldier said the quote.

The author and Marshall(a common first name) Mays doesnt ring a bell with me.

Re: qualify your book quotes steve

La Grande Armee
Georges Blond
Translated by Marshall May
Arms and Armour Press
Wellington House,125/130 Strand, London WC2R OBB

The quote from page 317 regarding the weather is a deduction on the part of the writer after reading the historical documents and testimonies from survivors of the Russian Campaign by the Grande Armee

If you are interested in the Napoleanic era then I recommend this book. It is an awesome read. I'm not selling, just directing. Look it up at

Not convinced with unqualified source

hi Steve, I really only go by published memoirs and contempary source,hard first hand factual accounts of somebody who was actually present, attributed to (whever wetc).The absence of the originator of the quotes reduces the page references to mere here-say, a good read it may be.Without these i find such references are null and void.

I have no time for compilations and so called latter day historians as much is distorted and omitted in sake of journalistic and publishing liimitations.

eg Memoirs of Bourienne (Napoleons personal secretary) 1816 (4 volumes) translated/published 1826 into english give alot of detail about the whole era. Probally the best personal account I have yet read.

you guys are funny - just admit you're wrong

But I'm sure you'll find some reason to tear this one to pieces as well:
from the memoirs of baron de marbot:

>>>THE battle was fought on september 7.THE WEATHER WAS OVERCAST AND A COLD WIND RAISED CLOUDS OF DUST. ...THE ICY WIND, BLOWING WITH GREat force, prevented him (napoleon)from staying on horseback.<<<<

Borodino: the next morning...

In the morning Napoleon rode over the wreck-covered field. A cold fierce wind, a driving rain, and a sombre sky, imparted still greater gloom and desolation to the scene.

jackanory jan...

thank god someone is amused. At the begining of the thread the translation took off and we have a 200 year old weather report.Nothing is impossible chuckle.Thankyou Bert Ford

Re: Not convinced with unqualified source

The fact is this. The weather did change. Borodino was not a summer battle.

Re: Re: Not convinced with unqualified source

Yep, for sure there were also snow. Or maybe it was naval battle and any manufacturer could produce ships which participated in Borodino.

Well, nothing is imposible.

Yevgen Chernov

Re: Re: Re: Not convinced with unqualified source

As I stated in a previous post the weather was similar to mid to late Fall. There was no snow. I never said there was snow. You can mock my post all you want. the facts are the facts.
I know the histoical calender said the battle was Sept. 5th, 6th, and 7th., and that is still summer. But to the consternation of both French and Russian troops, and , 129 years later, German troops, the weather became unseasonably cold and were forced to protect themselves accordingly.

The neat thing about this hobby is that it lends itself to playing make believe. In your case you may continue.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Not convinced with unqualified source

And how did they protect themselves?


Yevgen Chernov

And the French had a different calendar ,Oui ?

Re: And the French had a different calendar ,Oui ?

Yes the French were using the Gregorian Calende in 1812. The Germans used that same calender in 1941.

The Russians used the Julian calender which is why they showed up late for, say, birthday parties, dental appointments, battles etc..

Re: Re: The weather before Borodino(Moskowa)

The 25th Line regiment (of Compans division) at the
battle of Borofino (la Moskowa) in the early morning before commencement of the battle:

Dans cette sanglante journée, les divisions Compans et Desaix, placées sous les ordres mêmes de Davout, eurent pour mission d'attaquer en flanc, par la lisière des bois, le second monticule et les trois flèches que les Russes avaient construits sur la gauche de leur ligne, pendant que Ney devait les attaquer de front avec deux de ses divisions. À trois heures du matin, le mouvement des troupes commença dans le plus profond silence, aidé par un brouillard (english=fog) épais qui masquait aux yeux de l'ennemi les dispositions prises de notre côté.
Arrivé à leur lisière par des chemins difficiles, il s'était approché de celle des trois flèches qui était la plus à droite, afin de la prendre par côté et de l'enlever brusquement.

This info I found on the French Site of this regt. When the circumstances in the morning were as discribed I can certainly imagine the soldiers were wearing their greatcoats and other items to protect themselves and their arms and ammo.
Having read lots of info about the battle and the campaign just prior and after La Moskova, the weather was switching from wet and cold to a more sunny autumnclimate during the day. I can therefore imagine the lads fighting there would have worn a mixture of uniforms.


Re: Re: Re: The weather before Borodino(Moskowa)

Bert, Please translate.

Re: Re: Re: Re: The weather before Borodino(Moskowa)

I tried to translate it as best as I could:
"On that bloody day the divisions of Compans and Desaix were under the direct command of Davout. Their mission was to attack the flank, from the edge of the wood on to the second hill and the three flèches that the Russians had build on the left of our line. Ney was to attack them at the front with two of his divisions. At 3 AM the troops were set in motion with the utmost silence. A dense fog furthermore covered our movement and this helped us to reach our dispositions unnoticed by the enemy.
We reached the vicinity of the flèches over difficult roads. Their centre now lay on our extreme right, complete for the taking and destruction by surprise."

At the end of or just after the battle it seemed it started raining again (probably during Napoleons inspection of the concered terrain).


Thanks Bert