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Re: By a horses head

Minuteman, from what I can tell, the Chasseur horses are basically the same horses used in the Prussian sets with remodelled furniture. I didnt think you were a fan of the Prussian horses? I stand corrected if you are.

Stubbs was an excellent painter. I like his work. However he was still..........a painter.
Not a photographer.
He still painted in a romantic way. Some of his paintings are very nice, some dont look quite right but are nice paintings in themselves.
Thing is, we dont need 1700s artwork to know what a horse looks like they are here around us today.
The horses used by the household cavalry today for example are very much like what would of been used by them in the Napoleonic era. And we still use the tradition of black horses for the household regiments.

I have set out why I dont like the current sculpts in previous posts. But for an overall suggestion as to why they are not great sculpts, just read the exerpt from PSR i included above from the Prussian Dragoon set review. They pretty much sum it up.

As I have said, I take cavalry sets like I do artillery sets...as a package. I have done my best to replace some of the old guns from Hats early artillery sets, they were rubbish. Too small and no detail. Guns however are one thing to replace. But horses? I can exchange some horses for better examples but not indefinately.

If Strelets continue to pump out Napoleonic cavalry sets with these current horses, eventually no matter how great or perfect the troopers are, no matter if its a troop type I really need, I will have to pass on them. I wont have a choice.
If I have to buy other sets horses just for the new troopers, it will be just too expensive per each box of Strelets and just not practical in the long term. I mean to pinch the horses from other sets means scrapping a lot of troopers from those sets also. Its an expensive, wasteful process ive had to do in the past and is just not worth it. This is one of my hobbys, i cant throw money at it for the hell of it.

Fact is, Strelets can produce better horses, we have seen them. The WSS horses are not perfect but way better than the Napoleonic ones
So theres no excuses really. If the current sculptor finds horses difficult...fine....give him another subject to do and let someone else do the cavalry. He may be amazing at artillery for all we know!!

Re: By a horses head

All of the art experts tell us that Stubbs was one of the greatest equestrian painters of all time and that he had an unparalleled understanding of a horses anatomy; but I have always thought his horses look like shoe boxes on legs. I don't get Stubbs's horses at all. But then I'm not an art expert, nor am I a horse expert.

Occasionally a manufacturer makes a cavalry set with exceptionally good horses and I think wow! what great horses. Apparently I know when I see a really good looking model horse but to be honest I don't know horses well enough to know when I see a not so good one. I think I can spot a really bad one though, we've all seen them.

If the recent criticisms result in future sets having far superior horses I'm all in favour of that, but the current sets are what they are and I have some recently acquired Prussian cavalry sets here so, like James, I had a look at the horses 'in the flesh'. They'll do me. The heads are a bit short and some are a bit blocky looking but otherwise they look horsey enough to me and I think with a coat of paint they'll look fine. I may want to try to make some of them look like they're moving a bit faster though.

I also have the WSS British dragoons. Those horses do look a bit better, the heads are better sculpted and there's better muscle definition on the bodies. They also have more dynamic poses but I'm one of the few people here that actually wants that.

If future sets have horses that look more like the WSS ones, well and good but I don't see anything in the current Napoleonic horses that's going to make me really hate them.

Re: By a horses head

Dear James,

probably the most iconic image of a horse is hanging in the National Gallery in London:

One may assess proportions/head size for yourself.
There're also leaner breeds yet with small heads and necks:



Best regards,

Strelets

Re: By a horses head

Yes, those are the George Stubbs 'type' horses I'm thinking of....

Roger/Sansovino: There are plenty of horses out there, just mix and match. Look forward to seeing some of those Chasseurs painted up here on the Forum....mounted on whatever looks best.

Re: By a horses head

The top is indeed a iconic painting of a thoroughbred called Whistlejacket.
.....but a painting none the less. Look at a thoroughbred (racehorse) today and see if they look the same. They havent changed much.
My own horse is stabled next to a thoroughbred ex-racehorse. My own is a thoroughbred/Irish Draught cross. So i know that, while a wonderful painting, Stubbs work isnt the most definitive portrayal of such a breed.

The photo below is of a Akhal-Teke (hope I spelled that right!).
These are I believe of Turkmenstien origin and are a beautiful exotic breed. They were bred in ancient times I beleive.
They even come in metallic colours!!!
But.....not typical of European cavalry horses of the Napoleonic period. What few there may of been, would of been the preserve of very high ranking officers.

Surely the sculptor isnt basing his/her work on Akhal-Teke's??!!!!!! Because the French & Prussian cavalry regiments had loads of them didnt they?!! I suppose they were all metallic silver and gold too??!!!!!

If the sculptor is... well this is what happens when art overtakes historical accuracy.

Strelets its your call. You can either improve the horses, or just keep the current ones.
What actions you take will obviously effect sales in the long run.
Theres a good many on here who are disappointed with them, the British firing line effort was another.
Whereas praise was once widespread on here, the dissapointed voices are increasing.

Minuteman.....
I said above why its not viable long term to constantly mix and match. I dont have enough spares to replace every horse in every Napoleonic cavalry set if they are all like the current ones. Im sure that goes for others. If me and others are forced to buy horses elsewhere, only to waste the troopers in that set, that doubles the cost of 1 single Strelets box. If i want cavalry units of 25-30 plus, thats too expensive and may as well try and find metal alternatives.

Re: By a horses head

As mentioned earlier, the deviant anatomy of the horses goes with strikingly incorrect horse furniture. How is it possible to defend such obvious flaws? How come that people pretending to be interested in "historical figures" give a S H I T about historical accuracy, AND realistic anatomy? How come such people feel urged to ridicule customers who want historical accuracy and realistic anatomy from a company that pretends to offer just this?

What could the "defenders of C R A P" - J. F., MM, whoever they are - lose when both anatomy and outfit of the horses would be correct? Those who insist on historical accuracy and realistic anatomy would be pleased, and no harm would be done to those who are indifferent. They wouldn't lose anything - I dare say - if they were decent people.

Sorry to say so, but I think those "defenders of C R A P" are shills. I said it before, Strelets is "triumphant" due to the fact that there are no competitors around at the moment. Strelets will be done before long - and with no loss to serious and honest customers - when they go on like this.

As for the sculptor of "Napoleonics", I think he is not only not able to make horses, he's also completely unable to produce anything but static humans. Same poses, even the same faces, for all periods and all nations.

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.”

But "Mr Strelets" goes on trying.

Re: By a horses head

Kun-opinion,

You cannot help yourself can you? Have to resort to personal attacks and unsubstantiated slander. You can change your pseudonym, but not your m.o.

It is the only amusing thing that you have ever written, suggesting that Mark and I are somehow stoolies of Strelets. It is not we who hide behind pseudonym and anonymity, nor have to change our identity at regular intervals as we have offended so many.

How about you stick to your continued negative critique of Strelets, based on your observations and preferences and to posting links to historic documents (which at least have some value to others) and keep your toxic side to yourself?

If you cannot behave like an adult, then join the 15 year-old keyboard warriors making rude comments on YouTube. It has no place here.

You need plenty of handling, but no care.

James ('cause I have a name and do not need to hide behind a pseudonym).

Re: By a horses head

Not sure which horses the sculptor had in mind, but if you look at these

https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=18461.90 see under "Cossack 1812" (middle of the page)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Knoe14_27.jpg

or

https://napoleon1812.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/faur-in-camp-31-august0000.jpg (French/German horses in Russia 1812 mid-campaign)

horses definitely can look not so great, depending on their state of care and health or, well, the capability of the painter ...

Re: By a horses head

Horses probably didnt look too good in general during campaign. But they probably still had ears!!! 😂

Problems with paintings of the period is that...they are paintings. Walk into an art class, look at all the students work....will all be different to an extent...or maybe plain dreadful!!

We have to be careful when using art for historical reference. For example, both the foot guards and the 23rd Welsh Fusiliers have been shown with bearskins at Waterloo. This is not at all correct.
The 28th Gloucestershire are shown with Belgic shakos at Waterloo....again incorrect....they still had their stovepipes.
Sometimes with uniforms, we have no choice but to look upon this art for any kind of idea.
But horses.....oh I think there is still 1 or 2 of them kicking about these days!! 😁😂

Re: By a horses head

I have sometimes doubts, if we all have eyes to see. Sure some are more and others less sensible for aesthetics, biology or historical accurancy. I have less and less acceptance for obvious toy soldiers and horses. There are still many good sets which exists, so I can focus me on the better ones and don´t buy the weaker ones.
What have to been express, was mentioned now here - I presume. So the market with its selling rates will shown, how successful will been the new napoleonic cavalry sets......

Re: By a horses head

MR Ed where are you, Please tell these people who is right straight from the horses mouth. Ha ha hee hee

Re: By a horses head

Dear Strelets,

Thank you for posting those.

The more that I have looked at them, the more that I realise that your sculptor is 'doffing' his hat to the style of contemporary paintings; and the more I like the figures.







All figures are a representation and bear the signature of the sculptor and his style. We have had the classic toy soldier look, through to the more realistic, finely proportioned figures of early Minifigs or Hinton Hunt, through to the heavy set, comic-like representations of so many modern 28 mm manufacturers (these latter do not appeal to me, but they seem to sell well).

It may be that your sculptor will have to adopt a more realist style to have wider appeal:



or even this:



Of course, as Sansovino so aptly points out, it is not the views and preferences of a few on this forum but sales that will be the final proof of this little pudding.

Regards, James

Re: By a horses head

First of all, let me just request that we dont descend into name calling and vitriol.
While I do not agree with James's views on the horses or Marks views on the solution, I respect their opinion. I also understand Handlewithcare's passion and why he may be getting frustrated. BUT.....
Healthy debate is one thing, but personal attacks are not the answer and can take away the effect of what could be an excellent point.
So c'mon lads, keep it civil.

James,
If we descend into some sort of renaissance art type horse sculpts, what is the point of trying to make accurate and realistic troopers? We may as well just go back to the old Airfix Waterloo trolls & munchkin men of the past! I mean, some would call that style sort of art!!
Personally, I think just keep the arty stuff for the Tate gallery or Louvre, just concentrate on getting figures right and proper as best as can.

We dont need any artwork to act as a guide to what horses look like. We just need find out what sort of horses a particular regiment or nation had "on paper" at least, and find photos of them today, because I am pretty sure they are still around. Shires havent pulled a cart regularly on the roads for a long time, shire horses are still alive and well though!
I mean, we dont need paintings of people to know what an average human looks like do we?!

Both yourself and Sansovino have hit on the crux of the matter.....sales.
As has been said, surely it increases your chances of success if you make the product to the best of your ability, accurate and as true as can be? Those customers who care about accuracy etc, get a excellent product, those who arent as bothered get an excellent product anyway.....win-win for everyone.
Strelets had a "interesting" style once before. It was like marmite to customers...some liked it, some loathed it.
But then a couple of years ago with those new Napoleonic sets etc, the style became more appealing to the masses and Strelets' stock among us lifted to where many seen them as the best manufacturer out there. I was one of them. If however Strelets begin making figures in a more distinct manner again, we will be back to the "marmite" Strelets that people either liked or ignored of the past.
Surely everybody can see that would be a bad move in the long run? Potentially even costly?
Do we want another Hat Industrie? Or Italeri? Where are they now?

I have often said on here how brilliant it is how far Strelets have come, but my fear is all that effort will go to waste and thus as a company regress.
I partly believe its our fault too. Putting more pressure on for more sets, getting worried if we dont see our "Friday surprise".
Strelets take your time, do the research, check the product, dont rush.
Even by taking your time, you will still will be quicker than Hat!!!

Re: By a horses head

Well I had horses running around in my field for decades and can say that horses can be quite different from one another, though it seemed to me the heads were a bit small and bodys a little overwieght as far as some recent strelets horses are concerned, but didnt consider it outside the realm of reality...
In anycase most modern breeds can be somewhat different to their forebears...

The skinny breed that strelets posted above I found quite interesting in that I haven't seen this before but reminded me of when I was looking for evidence of Ancient Egyptian horses, mostly because the Caesar and Atlantic Ponies/horses are quite different...
In anycase the long and the short is that I discovered there were several breeds in the ancient middle east that would fit quite well, though the Atlantic horses were more likely the Pharaohs personal thoroughbreds by Egyptian chariot standards but both existed from skeletal evidence...

In any case my point is you need to look at evidence from the past rather then comparing modern breeds, even ones that have an ancient ancestry...

These days my main concern is whether or not a horses gait looks realistic and the riders actually fit!


:wink:

Re: By a horses head

Thats the issue Ironsides, the head to body ratio etc.
No one is saying that horses arent different or have small or large heads. A Dutch Warmblood for example has a large head compared to a thoroughbred.
But it has to all be in proportion. You cant stick a small head on a neck and body of something more akin to a much more "butch" body. Just as you cant stick a huge head on a little body. Its no different to human sculpts. We say they look comical when their heads are odd to their body, i feel the same when looking at some makers horses.

Your be surprised how little breeds have changed over the last few centuries. A few have but not drastically, & not your general European sort, which these cavalry sets represent. Not many mammals have changed noticably in 200 odd years in general anyway....prehistoric times....thats different, horses didnt have hoofs then for example, they had proper toes!!!

As I say, its better to look what breeds were used by whoever and sculpt accordingly.
But.... even if the 2 breeds shown by Strelets are what the current horses are ment to be, the sculptor has still not done a great job of it. No offense, but its clear that horses are not this persons strength. People and artillery may very well be different, so play to his/her strengths.
Wouldnt ask a plumber to fix a car...you call a mechanic!!
So get someone who sculpts men AND horses well to do cavalry!!!! A no-brainer i'd of thought!!

PSR have been reviewing cavalry sets for ages now. If people dont want listen to my view on the current sculpts, listen to them who have summed it up well.

Re: By a horses head

Roger, Ironsides

I think you both have a point here. While I understand the disappointment of some here when comparing the horses of the latest Napoleonic sets with others Strelets and other companies have produced before and critism as such is good and valid there's no need to start ranting. Even if ranting on a forum to vent some frustration certainly is better than beating ones dog or children ... 😒.
Looking at the pictures linked and posted here I think the sculptor may have worked from paintings rather than life objects. Which is perhaps not the best way, but as long as it's not a horse straight out of a Dali painting as those in Italeris Prussian cavalry and the riders fit the horses, so be it. If those were kickstarter sets and people had put their money into them, some stronger comments might be in place, but as it is imho some are a little bit over the top. So let's sit down have a cigar or a glass of wine and relax. In the end sales will tell.