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Re: After Easter Eggs

Let's get by .... The Great War in Europe is above minor conflicts! Bravo, Master!

Re: After Easter Eggs

Valentin
Let's get by .... The Great War in Europe is above minor conflicts! Bravo, Master!
This is the 2nd time you have refered to "minor conflicts". To what conflicts are you refering to as "minor"?

In one case you seem to reference Alans favourite topic, the desert.
Now Alan can correct me if im wrong, but i think the more "sandy" theatres can refer to campaigns in the Middle East & North Africa, during both WW1 and WW2.

I dont think either could (or should) be called "minor conflicts".

Nothing wrong with a bit of humour, but lets not get disrespectful, especially when there are still veterans, morso now of WW2, who for all we know, may also like to collect figures, and perhaps may just have got some of that sand in their boots.

Re: After Easter Eggs

That's it! What can compare with STALINGRAD ???

Re: After Easter Eggs

Stalingrad 91,000 Germans captured, Tunisia 230,000 Germans captured , plus 49,000 German/Italians at El Alamein.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Well you are talking about captured soldiers but stalingrad had far more casualties then in tunisia.stalingrad was second to non. Plus they were together with germans Italians too plus hungarians and romanians . Plus at early stage red army was outnumbered but in tunisa allied forces outnumbered German&italian army. So please check the facts before you post something.history must me told as it happened and not leave out important things . Omission of some facts is the bigest problem of some historians enthusiastic who prefer one side over other.in stalingrad at beginning there were in red army 75,000 female soldiers and later on there numbers increased.stalingrad was total war.91 000 germans who you talking about were paulus 6th army but you should add italians,romanians hungarians croatian legion.that is 235, 000, at least.(including mainstein reliving forces ) captured from all units. Plus no body knows how many hiwis sources are different from 19,000 to 52,000. Plus ratio of German soldiers to their allies (axis)in stalingrad was much higher compired to tunisia as Italians had majority troops in tunisia not so in stalingrad. And still British had powerful navy so how can you go home if you can’t cross the sea. But from stalingrad its far and German soldiers could at least try trivel home and connect to their units because they feared of captivity. After capitulation at stalingrad 10,000 German soldiers were still fighting and of those 91,000 whu surendered half of them were wounded, and rest starved... so you are comparing something what can not be compared. Two different campaigns. Both were important so thanks to all ally soldiers who contributed and sorry for axis forces who were mislead and drafted.... so please get more info on stalingrad if you don’t know facts and if you think im saying that because I’m russian well im not . So respect to all fallen soldiers. Best regards.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Well you never know, some of those chaps in the desert might of helped force the Germans to send reinforcments to North Africa, instead of them being sent to bolster the forces on the Eastern Front.
Imagine if Hitler and his generals only had to worry about fighting on the East with all their manpower, airpower and armour at their disposal?

As someone else found out in 1812 when invading Russia, a war on several fronts is never a good thing. Napoleons "Spanish Ulcer" plagued him as much as his real health complaints.

Your right though, Stalingrad, the Eastern front & the Soviet Men (and Women), played a major role in helping defeat Hitlers regime....as did the forces in North Africa.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Let's not compare those who surrendered .... More than 300 thousand Germans, Romanians, Italians, Croats and

Re: After Easter Eggs

These guys died under the arms of the Red Army ... But we always remember that yellow tanks were present on the fronts of the Great Patriotic War

Re: After Easter Eggs

Although there is something fundamentally repugnant about such comparisons, if one engages in them, one should stick to the actual data.

Captured German soldiers in Tunisia 1943 = roughly 120.000 men
Total Axis losses (wounded, dead & captured Italians & Germans) = 250.000 to 300.000 men
Allied losses (wounded & dead) = roughly 76.000 men

Captured German soldiers during & after Stalingrad battle = 108.000 men
Total Axis losses at Stalingrad (wounded, dead, captured Romanians, Italians, Hungarians & Germans) = 750.000 to 850.000 men
Total losses Red Army (wounded, dead & captured) = roughly 1.100.000 men
Civilian Losses = unknown, but most probably quite high

While most here have long perceived a glaring & pitiful lack of sophistication with a few writers, it is indeed true that in Europe & much of the world Verdun for WW1 or Barbarossa for WW2 have far more significance and symbolic power than artificially inflated secondary fronts or supposedly "glorious" Dam-Busters style terror attacks.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Thank you, Peter the Great. Your judgment is very true! Excuse me...

Re: After Easter Eggs

"While most here have long perceived a glaring & pitiful lack of sophistication with a few writers, it is indeed true that in Europe & much of the world Verdun for WW1 or Barbarossa for WW2 have far more significance and symbolic power than artificially inflated secondary fronts or supposedly "glorious" Dam-Busters style terror attacks."

Yes you are indeed correct that Verdun and Barbarossa were massively important events with terrible loss of life.
I recently watched a documentary about Verdun and it truely was slaughter. As someone once said, "Lions led by Donkeys".

What I (and im sure others), take offense to, is important conflicts being called minor. Its historically innacurate and disrespectful to those who fought and died in them. That is all. Please remember that there are still some veterans around from these times. Doesnt matter what their nationality is or where they fought.
You will notice not once have I played down the Eastern Front. Thats because it would be improper and offensive to do so, not to mention untrue. Fact is defeating Hitler was a team effort so to speak.

As for comparing the Dambusters with something like September 11th..........well im just stunned, and a fair bit angry. Guy Gibson & Barnes Wallace are now akin to Bin Laden?!!!!!

I think that just about does it for me, i cant stay around here with people like that. Thats just disgusting. Think I will take a break from the forum and im not sure I will want to come back.
I cant put into words how offended and angry I am.

Yep your right, something repugnant about comparisons.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Dear Roger. I never thought that my publication would cause such a reaction ... Forgive me. If you have arguments, convince me ... I'm ready to go over to the side of the TRUTH. But please do not stop communicating ...

Re: After Easter Eggs

Roger, did you accept my apology? I ask you to....

Re: After Easter Eggs

Valentin
Roger, did you accept my apology? I ask you to....
Yes. PM sent.

Re: After Easter Eggs

My point was, hardly a minor conflict, and not a secondary front for the western allies, but the only place they could engage the Axis powers on the ground and hope to win (1940/43). As far as Dam buster terror raid, you mean a feat of arms never before accomplished , a new weapon delivered with pin point accuracy hundreds of miles behind enemy lines that destroyed two of the three military targets disrupted enemy weapons manufacturing and boosted morale throughout the free world. Terror raids were more like the V1+2 indiscriminately targeting civilian targets, or maybe bombing the Hague in 1940. Further more if Stalin and his side kicks had listened to British intelligence advising him of the start of Barbarossa and planned accordingly they may not have lost more aircraft in the first couple of days than the RAF fought and won the battle of Britain with a year earlier.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Of course it helped just like D- day or like partisans activities it is said thanks to the partisans 10% of axis personnel had to fight them. So plus 10% could be crucial at some battles if they weren’t there. Barbarossa started 3:15 morning but what many people don’t know it started on Sunday were many red army officers were on leave. Many weapons& supplies couldn’t be given to troops as many units had several locks on armoury or more then one specific officers had to be present.... that is why so many loses had in red army at early stage of war.and to train new troops you need time and many didn’t get training because simply there wasn’t time for it.... so everything was shortened..

Re: After Easter Eggs

Thank you artists of Stretlets. A few weeks ago I had asked to see behind the scenes the creative process, and this is what I meant. I had honestly never seen how this is done. Fascinating.

Re: After Easter Eggs

Now, let's face it.
If Russians were against Hitler's Germany, alone, then (I am sure of this) Soviets would have been defeated.
Without RAF and British navy and the U.S. lend-lease act, Soviet Union was near to collapse when Germans were before Moscow, and collapse would have been the outcome...
So, enough is enough about Stalingrad. Yes a great victory, but this was a necessary but not a sufficient condition...
Not to mention Russians contribution in WWI...

Re: After Easter Eggs

I come from Lincolnshire and 617sqn has the 'freedom of my home town'. Worth looking up what 617 squadron actually achieved in its history the dams mission is only one of many activities. - taking the trouble to look up or even better go to Woodhall Spa and see their memorial. Destruction V1 and V2 , pathfinders, U-boat pens and the Tirpitz were only some of their activities.

Yes the many revisionist historians put down bomber command and 617 as terrorists but history has always played fast and loose with the facts by focusing on some bit and ignoring others ie 1939- 1941 when the Soviet Union actively worked with the Third Reich to destroy Poland (and destroyed its officer class).

It should never be forgotten that the civilians and the armed forces of the USSR paid a heavy price during the invasion of their country by trusting Herr Hitler. Our politicians need to work harder to see that such events never happen again.

Re: After Easter Eggs

I completely agree

Re: After Easter Eggs

I don’t think so even if Moscow was taken by germans they wouldn’t get too far .Napoleon got into moskov in 1812 but if your army doesn’t have winter clothes then your army will not fight for long time, airports will not be taken care of and supplies will not reach troops in enemy territory. Winter was hard for germany but so was for red army too but they got good winter clothing. Plus red army asked for b-24 and b 17 bombers and they never received them.. us lend- lease act helped significantly shortened war significantly. Roosevelt knew that if Britain falls and soviet union too then all europe would be lost and usa could be next as hitler supported japan. Dont forget that Soviet union still was making good tanks t-34 and they moved production far east. Germans copied their mortars ,panthers and king tigers were influenced by soviets tanks, don’t forget about Zhukov and his army when they came back with excellent equipment waiting near Chinese border for Japanese to attack but as soon as they found out that attack will not come they returned... plus Usa gave more help to British,Britain got 3 times more then Soviet Union during whole war. And it was estimated that Moscow will fall so there was some delay in help that significantly changed after germans were stoped at Moscow...

Re: After Easter Eggs

Mr Pavol,

you have a very good point of view, and I agree in the 90% of your analysis!!
Surely soviets had carried out the most greater effort at the war against the nazi's Germany, there is no doubt about it.
But Britain and the Commonwealth were supplying, all over the war period, every resistance group in Europe and gave vast numbers of equipment to the USSR (the worth of aircraft engines only, was about 1,1bn British pounds). They also carried out the task of delivering the goods, by numerous convoys and great losses, engaging the whole German navy plus they (with Americans) bombed every industrial city and town in the third Reich and the occupied Europe.
And Moscow, in 1941, was the communication and transportation centre of the entire Soviet Union, and the communist capital of course. Too big to be lost, by my opinion.
In Napoleonic wars, Moscow was just a great city (Saint Petersburg was the capital).
And in 1941, Leningrad was already under siege...
And Napoleon's great enemy (as Hitler's till 1941) was, who else? The British empire!!!

But I still must say that I may be wrong. Who knows with the "ifs" in history...
I fully respect your opinion and I thank you for our little discussion!!!

Re: After Easter Eggs

Hi Marios .yes just like in ww2 in napoleonic wars British were main enemy of Napoleon. If you compare French army of napoleonic war they were sort of like German blitzkreig in ww ii. Moving faster then enemies. French artillery of napoleonic wars had cannons 25% lighter then their opponents so that contributed greatly to speed ov movement. British natiion did the best they could when they focused more on the navy as island country.and in ww 2 plus on air forces. RAF did excellent job against german Luftwaffe while outnumbered.when first accidental bombing of london happened and British retaliated by unexpectedly bombing raid on berlin this paradoxically benefited to RAF as angered hitler gave orders for bombing london and other british cities.by shifting from attacking british air fields, air fighters command installations to cities and that relived pressure on RAF. In my opinion many so called minor first battles were more important then we think. For Hitlers Germany it was in spain legion condor who encountered Russian supplied aircrafts and tanks to republicans.also very important was using first time 88mm flak 16 anti aircraft artillery guns against republicans tanks&fortifications with direct . Yes speaking of delivering goods 7% were lost due to loss. I thank you too for interesting discussion :-) nobody can’t know everything that is why we learn from each other.... I also like Churchill of his iron leadership. And I nearly forgot hitler by writing his book mein kampf let others know what he is going to do ahead of time. Stalin has read it it was translated to him so sooner or later he would attack hitlers garmany. Soviet-germany pakt was only made for 2 reason for hitler offense on west and divide poland for Stalin get time to modernize soviet army.as after winter war with Finland he realized that much needs to be done.... I agree, yes we can’t be sure with if’s we can only try calculating... after all even now always something new is discovered so many if’s. :grinning: