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Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Dear WWI fans
The Russian gas "mask" depicted was a head piece so I wonder how many Russian soldiers in the heat of battle/being gassed would bother to put their hats (not helmets) back on. I am sure there are photos but a lot were taken, for obvious reasons, during drills or at training camps. The pic in the Wiki article on WWI poison gas has a British Vickers gun crew with the PH type gas mask without hats. Hat less for full head or headpiece masks would have been another option for these figures and probably more common until the advent of the helmet.

The Russian gas mask was known as the Zelinsky-Kummant see:

If Strelets do the British PH type gas mask(which they probably wont) they should consider most of the figures being hatless.


Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Professori i dont want to be teh bad guy all teh time.But i am of same opinion with experience using masks. Try and run in these is not for very long.tRY and shoot in these is very inaccurate, but very uncomfortable to sustain wearing any gas these masks.
to fight in these must have been exhausting very quickly.

they have change style many times since then etc but they dont get any more comfortable.
SWET RASH FROM TEH RUBBER seal AND straps cause FRICTION.cONSDENSATIon inside .Body heat from running causes misting of optics.Its crazy .

Really its best to stay in defensive rotation when subjected to gas and get underground gas shelter .alternatively surrender teh contaminated ground as teh enemy cant use it either effectively so evryone lose when gas agents are used..

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

No matter how uncomfortable the mask was, it was still preferable to the alternative. You could either wear it, or you could die in great pain.

Soldiers were forced to attack over contaminated ground. So, again, no matter how uncomfortable it was, remaining in defense was not an option. Yielding ground is not an option if the ground is your mother country.

Dugouts were no protection against the heavier-than-air gases. Once contaminated, they had to be ventilated, or you had to seek higher ground, ie move up out of the trench and into the open (where the enemy could shoot you).

Frank Mitchell, a tank commander from WW1, describes a tank attack over contaminated ground. Conditions inside the tank were awful under normal circumstances, one can only imagine how hellish it must have been to have been forced to wear a gas mask as well.

Excellent figures, Strelets. I look forward to getting my hands on them.

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

And a Lewis gun, I notice.

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Dear Hank
As a child we had about 3 different types of gas mask kicking about the house;they were left overs from WWII and I used to play with them. Some were children's ones which did fit me but they were uncomfortable and misted up and restricted breathing etc. These were supposed to be an improvement on those of WWI so the WWI ones must have been very unpleasant to wear.
The lack of an exhale valve in the early Z-K mask so you breathed in and out through the charcoal must have made it a lot worse. The effect was worse still if the cork bung hadn't been taken out of the respirator bottom ie the part you breathe through. Zelinsky is the chemist who was the first to use activated charcoal in a mask and Kummant was the inventor of the mask. The misting was solved by a shaped piece enabling the wearer to insert a finger and wipe the glass see:

When the finger part sticks out it looks like a little beak. Another trick to clear the mask of carbon dioxide, water vapour etc was to blow very hard and break the seal for a fraction of a second. You would have needed exceptionally strong lungs to have done that.


Re: masters of russian in gasmask

there is a difference in playing with gasmasks and fighting for your life in one.

Teh latter would have raised body heat and swet etc so wiping teh glass may not be wise exposing yourself. I look for ear holes and know it must be also hard to hear and talk coherent orders.
In gunfire and smoke all is very confusing but add a gasmask and it is a total different world.add mud and dust and your visibility soon reduces.people are shooting their own side in is very confusing.

it is a feeling of being underwater. people go the wrong way and get lost easily. i guess it was an easy way to clear a minefield with "less surrounding aware" assault troops .Plus barb wire must have been mayhem of confusion to even be in an attack at a walk pace.pot holes from shells and some undergrowth tangling up ones feet would have a more introverted personal panic set in to try and free yourself.So teh mask steam up and now you are caught and cant see is very un drop your weapon to try free yourself now you have to find it .one thing leads to another.a terrible rpedicamnet for a soldier to be in.
people shouting cant hear the order properley everybody shouting is muffled and distorted .bullets hitting ground ad cracking in reply .when firing aweopon teh eyepiece woul not let teh firer look through the sight easily .breathing is harder and aim is more difficult.explosions and concusion from shells and smoke would disorientate an assault party very quickly into effective disorder.

IN Defenders i think there was later war perfected a gas cloak drapes over a trench door.heavily charcoaled materials, for hq bunkers etc.but only as good as teh last person closing teh curtain try tell an officer to close teh door hah hah he shhot you then.

teh military and law enforcement gas masks today are
not that much difference, same in principles still rubber still canister filteration.again they can still steam up no matter what you do especially when fighting condition arises.

i think those poor soldiers who fight with this stuff on were doomed from the start.teh casualties were horrific blistering and blindness horrifying.

missed the point

Dear Hank

The point being that I was familiar with gas masks at an early age - 2/3 years old. Funnily enough, yes there is a difference between playing with them and fighting for your life in them. Isn't that obvious? I did know they misted up, were a tight fit, restricted vision, dark , frightening, smelly etc though through my infantile play.

Not being a Russian veteran of World war one I can only guess and imagine what it must have been like to wear a Z-K mask.

My main point was why depict the plastic figures with their hats on when most would consider them unnecessary with this type of mask?


that is inconsequential ... this is war ,not the playschool.

Professori, headware is most important for identification. In obscured vision battle scenario smoke and steam opticals make it a dangerous time.If you silhouette cannot be easily identified i guess it is then easy to shoot thinking it is the enemy.... Voices are muffled by teh masks so you cannot hear who or what is being shouted very is all confusing you are under extreme pressures. For the eyes this is bad due to the way teh protruding optic is design. Do not forget if dark is even worse with all teh above factors trying to identify friend and foe outline at close quarter with bayonettes and trench knifes flaying split second finger on trigger decision. evryone is screaming and fighting for their life taking wounds seeing people fall tripping over teh bodies .Also being grabbed by teh wounded of each side for help.Is a nightmare to exisit is confusion beyond reason.

Do not also forget that when wearing the older gas masks particulary taht you lose sight of some vision a foot or so infront of your feet .Your vision is more restricted to a narrower channel from the side also and reduces the peripheral vision.Like a horse blinkered.It is frequent to fall over unseen branches and uneven ground when waking.When running this increases. It all adds to the distressed condition of a soldier fighting combat in this type of environment.
I think headware is so important to maintain appearance of your army.

more inconsequential stuff

Dear Hank

Do not also forget that when wearing the older gas masks particulary taht you lose sight of some vision a foot or so infront of your feet .Your vision is more restricted to a narrower channel from the side also and reduces the peripheral vision.Like a horse blinkered.It is frequent to fall over unseen branches and uneven ground when waking.When running this increases.

Yes I used to run around in the gas masks and my M1 helmet and grazed my knees etc. Soon stopped doing it.

I was pointing out that from a very young age I knew about the gas mask's function and appearance - protect and survive. My family, not me, had learned how to use them. My Dad was in the NFS so he had the service respirator at home. I went to civil defence demonstrations/drills and open days. Several sizes of the Civilian respirator and the Service respirator were around my house. That's all. Why you are telling me about them as if I had never seen one before beggars belief.
My students worked with Plymouth museum several years ago on a hands on project for schools with items from the reserve collection including gas masks/respirators. Part of the project was getting feedback from people in retirement homes about their experiences in WWI and II. Their experiences were also triggered by the artefacts from the museum's collection. Lots of excellent observations.


Re: masters of russian in gasmask

I think the main reason for including the head-gear is a stylistic one. I do like the figures with their hats on, though it would be more accurate with them tucked in their belts I suppose. Same reason most Napoleonic French troops are depicted in full-dress.

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

you can think all you want huw, but if you dont dress like a friend you are delimit your life expectancy.
i think in those conditions you want to make it clear who you are.

you come here with another manufacturer banner/avatar so to me you are enemy.most of us here have no avatar.So You draw fire.fair is fair.yes ?

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Great looking figures. Lots of action plus I love the gas masks.

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

I thought I'd introduce some photographic evidence, as opposed to theorising.

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Dear all

My caveat was that many photos were likely to be taken as part of a drill, etc. I would have liked some without hats to give another option - that's all but now too late. Ditto British Phenate Helmet (PH)- too late? or maybe small box respirator only.
The site my pic came from in the posting above had a complete gun crew without hats and a pic of three obviously posed ( which contradicts my "posed have hats" argument)two without hats and one with:

The gun crew look as if they have the slightly later Avalov (m1917)design as do the ones in the top pic WH posting above. The bottom pic looks like the Z-K. The Avalov was by all accounts not as effective as the Z-K. Strelets may have based theirs on the Avalov or maybe they are a mixture of the two types. The Avalov was probably easier to wear with a hat.

No real problem I can make them with Green Stuff.


Re: masters of russian in gasmask

The problem is, of course, David, that genuine photos of the fighting are virtually non-existent. Not only was it too dangerous to muck about taking photographs with bullets and shells flying about, I should imagine that trying to look through a viewfinder while wearing a gasmask is pretty tricky. Photos are bound to be predominately 'posed' to a greater or lesser extent. Which is not a great help.


Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Dear Warwick

Genuine photos of the WWI fighting also tend to look very unremarkable. Tiny figures vanishing over the horizon or the odd plume of smoke in a barren landscape.
In comparison with WWII there are also fewer candid shots taken by the soldiers themselves at the front. On the positive side there are some photos that would be filtered out now for reasons of bad taste or political correctness showing the awful nature of the conflict.
I like the photo of the trench. If it is contrived it looks very convincing maybe the gas is morning mist.In the other picture the soldiers have the bungs in on their respirators as they would dangle on a small chain when in use like in my snowy pic. This is strange. It would be nice to know if there is a caption to go with this.


Re: masters of russian in gasmask

I like them with the hats. At the end of the day they're toy soldiers not a history project. There are few sets which please everyone, or are 100% correct in every way. Some sets are pleasing in spite of there innacuracies or crudeness of production. Airfix's first set of German infantry from 1964 has a lot of fans including myself but is just wrong wrong wrong.
I think the headgear gives them some character and charm they would otherwise lack. Without them they would be just generic troops in greatcoats. Thought: incude some bareheaded or a bare spare heads on the sprue for conversion then everybody's happy.

Re: masters of russian in gasmask

Uniformity is essential ,if you have spare heads they must to have helmet/hats on.This would be much useful for converting other figures to be gas you could take airfix maxim crew and put sr head on.
it would also be helpful for converying sr cavalrie rider.A spare horses head with gas mask only could resolve your problem for cavalrie horse save money make a "gasmask conversion kit ,etc. "

Silhouette of freindly figure is important at night or in obscure operations in fog mist of gas cloud. identity needs to be ascertained quick.everything is split decision.

professori made point of dots on the horizon .Wearing gas mask is slow mass advance as much as possible in line tactics of the day,advance to contact.if counter attack is big, problem evryone get mixed up and melee become tangled with result on best diciplined of troops.

when some own troops get ahead of others the situation arise of not just enemey in front becomes a dangerous one and cross fires ensue with mix ups happening can be fatal.different troops,different companies and different regiments all under different orders.

most important places were where flanks of different companies and regiments meet,with given differnt tasks but followed orders of movement from their own company hq.

so again advance line on a brigade front gets very tricky to keep the line going.If one regiment hits a wire entanglement .things get split up and weaknesses appear.troops in front troops in rear.this is where things get stretched and go wrong .

fiering starts bullets come through the flanks and some soldiers naturally return and draw friendly fire into direction thru backs of ftriendlies.,,,fog of war is deadly.night time fighting takes more control elements in planning due to restricted visuals.

it was not unusual for regiments to become stagger due to terrain.etc horrible battle conditions which can go badly wrong if not proprely organised and disciplined/dressed soldiers can see a strong force self disintegrate if they stray from the disciplines.

most of theh units enterring this type of gas assault you would have to give high faltality low life expectancy . general must have plenty reserves to replaace them later in teh line.tehse operations were a massive write off for the assault troops and high casualty rates.

troops rotate back through decontam,and sent to rear to reorg,recouperate and survivors collect their heavy baggage stores from their lines.

Huw - hatless & gasmask

Dear Huw
My only plea for some hatless/capless figures was with the helmet type respirator ie Zelinsky-Kummant and the British P Helmet.
Other masks of the face type would have benefited from wearing a hat or helmet as a lot of the hair and neck was left unprotected. Mustard gas ( Yellow Cross) was a blister agent( vesicant) and also killed the most British forces and caused a huge number of non fatal casualties(160,000+). The dangerous blisters were in the lungs or eyes but other blisters produced discomfort and lowered morale. Figures depicted suffering the effects of Mustard gas 1917/8 would be different to those being gassed by for example Chlorine or Phosgene or the tear gas (lachrymatory) types.


Re: Huw - hatless & gasmask

David, I'm sorry but I can't remember where the pics of the Russians came from. I've had them a long time. But here are a couple more to throw into the mix.

Cavalry gas mask

Dear Warwick
Interesting photos.
The bottom pic confirms what I was saying about the cavalry and the small box respirator a while ago. It seems a logical way to wear it and not cover over the bandolier. The horse respirator is interesting and the one on the right looks like it has a nose(feed) bag as well. It seems that horses' eyes were not susceptible to tear gas but they were to chlorine. I suppose the chlorine could be kept out with a cloth or similar over the eyes. Mustard gas did affect the horses' eyes badly and must have been a great problem.
The pic with the heavy howitzer showing the crew with gas masks maybe this was a precaution from leaks etc from their own shells. If they were in danger of counter battery fire you would have expected them to wear helmets as well.


Re: Cavalry gas mask

Looking forward to the french and German sets. Finlly something that will get me gaming WW1.

Re: Cavalry gas mask

Yes there are some great sets on the way from strelets and Hat for WW1 fans.

Re: Cavalry gas mask

A bit of trivia that might throw light on the subject. The American character actor Walter Brennan was the victim of a mustard gas attack in World War I. You might remember Walter Brennan if you are a fan of old American Westerns. He acted from the 1930s up into his death in the 1970s and always played old man parts - usually the funny sidekick of the hero. (The old jailor in John Wayne's "Rio Bravo", the minister in "SGT York" among hundreds of others) He ALWAYS played the old man, even as a young man, because the mustard gas made him lose his teeth and hair and prematurely aged his skin to make him look years older than his actual age. He was always a grim reminder to me of how important it was to keep your mask on no matter how uncomfortable it might be.

I know in our gas drills (albeit much later than World War I - 1970s and 1980s) we were instructed to automatically replace our helmets on our heads before proceeding as the noggin still needed protecting from the various stuff flying in a combat zone.

When I was going through US Army basic training in the 1970s a favorite past time of our drill sergeants was to force us to do our physical training drills in our gas masks, often troops would pass out. Later on, some idiot officers would take their companies out for two mile runs in mask - maybe there was a point to it. But our masks were much better than those of World War I, I can only imagine how uncomfortable those guys were.

Re: Cavalry gas mask

Wizard wheeze some of us had back in the early nineties to escape the same trewatment was to get a gas mask filter and remove the guts leaving an empty shell, a friend who was a chief tech at RAF St Athan showed us how. This was great and had us running around in ful IPE like super-men until one day the inevitable happened and the RAF Regiment took us into the gas chamber and I forgot to change the filter.........

Jackie Coogan, Uncle Fester from the Addams Family was the first Allied pilot to land a glider behind enemy lines in Burma while ferrying Orde Wingate's Chindits into action .

Walter Brennan

Dear Wayne
A great supporting actor.
I thought he was one of the strongest characters in Northwest Passage. BTW not his real teeth in this film but a prosthetic to replace his missing teeth.

Most accounts now say he lost most of his teeth in an accident in 1932. He died of emphysema which may have been connected to the Mustard gas. The aging, hair thinning etc could also have been a feature connected with his damaged lungs. Many Mustard gas victims later succumbed to TB and other lung diseases and of course these are not recorded as WWI deaths.
The WWI German bombardments used to use a mixture of HE, smoke and gas shells as the soldiers got used to the noise and appearance of a gas shell only barrage. Helmets were essential.


Re: Walter Brennan

David, I'd never heard about the car accident, nice to know, always heard it was the gas but never could figure out how the gas might have knocked out his teeth (then again, my mother always warned me not to pick my nose when I was a kid because I'd get cancer. I never could figure out how picking my nose would cause cancer but it sure stopped me from picking my nose...).

Huw, I always liked Jackie Coogan. He was a child actor who played with Charlie Chaplin and was plaintive in a lawsuit against his parents whom he sued when he grew up and found his parents had squandered all the money he made as a child actor. It caused the State of California to pass a law protecting child actors named after him, "the Coogan Law."

A lot of that generation of actors were true war "heroes" in the best sense of the word.

Re: Walter Brennan

Dear Wayne

The Mustard gas could have weakened his gums - horrible stuff. I don't believe anybody did or has done a study of the links between Mustard gas exposure(however slight) and influenza deaths.

Jackie Coogan
He married Betty Grable 1937 which did not last long div. 1939. But as you know she was very much the number one pin-up in WWII (US but Anglos as well) so that must have led to some difficult moments. He was probably the only US soldier not to have her photo pinned up.


Re: Walter Brennan

That would have been my guess. But ol' Walt was always a good incentive for me to take our NBC (Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Warfare) Training seriously - no matter how much I hated the mask.

Now Jackie Coogan and Betty Grable is NOT a match I would have pictured. But you know what they say about love...