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Re: Hank: Ottoman uniforms and kalafat

Is a pleasure. It took me much time to get to that leveL of understanding from scrapes of information pasting together.

offline It was kindly pointed out to me that i should have described better this way that..

Rules are not Regulations.
Regulations are not Rules.
Thats why they say "Rules AND Regulations"

Also another point was if soldiers had not been typically paid for several month.so how can they buy new jacket ? this was often the case in this era.so
that enters the infrastructure of administration and logistics.

a good book for you is a "Feshane" book many color full page plates 50 plus many many photos and illustrations.Feshane (still exists as conference centre)it was teh main Turkish/Istanboul uniform factory .is all in Turkish but would be a great story in any language. Modern Loom Machinery imported form Belgique and operators in 1840's provided to dress the war chest of the porte. I see this book only a few times on ebay approx $120 and mail is excellent descriptive is fair price.

Re: Hank: Ottoman uniforms and kalafat

Some s-r complimenting things will formulate here in this link, just as others have, and will help answer you mr rowland soon in more useful dimensions, just as "ottoman" is described above !....

http://historyin172.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

look liek it updates typically day 1 of each month.

Re: Hank: Ottoman uniforms and kalafat

Dear Hank

Uwe's Turks look very good and they are nicely proportioned. Maybe Strelets could follow the link and look?

The Victorian Military Society has some good info did you give Steve the link?

http://victorianmilitarysociety.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32:turkish-uniforms-of-the-crimean-era-as-depicted-by-general-vanson&catid=10:articles&Itemid=9
"Turkish Uniforms of the Crimean Era by C A Norman"
part 1-4 based on Vanson's sketches one of which figures on the blogspot link.

David

Ottoman uniforms danube/crimea/kars

Professori,
Vansons pictures are late Crimean War 1854-55 most drawings done in the Crimea peninsula.

My problem with vanson images is that teh esteemed VMS should update the images but in teh specific colors that they believe emile was trying to show.

Describing a black and white picture these days is not the way to go. We have the color technology to fill those sketches in.Some have beenvery successfully as you know. But Keep teh original sketch copies in archive and available. They VMS need to take a step up the ladder.

As mr rowland say there is currently no reputable ottoman source on teh market or available.I do look at teh ILN sketches by various 1853/4 artistes and all of these need to be lined up somehow.

Vanson if i am correct was not in the 1853 Danube campaign in teh capacity where he was drawing .
most of his pictures were done later 1854 thru 1855
passing time in the crimea peninsula but yes there he saw ottoman army of danube 1855 ,danube turkish chasseurs 1855 to draw so that is LATE for teh ottoman uniform of this battle era.(1853-56)..it is a litle mixed up to explain also.i like to start at the begining and tahti s why i stated that my friend.

I hope the esteemed VMS show intent to display the earlier uniforms out side vanson from the ILN SKETCHES ETC 1853-JUNE 1854 etc.Before CRIMEA PENISNULA.Then tie teh projects together etc.

The Ottoman troops in the Crimea Peninsula is anothe r subjetc to again sub divide between those Ottomans at Eupatoria under Turk control, and Those ottomans at Balaclava under British control.It is easy to see where the best employment was result was but tahts another debate.hahah

Ideally we do at some point need the Ottoman armies deconstructed in detail and then also represented by then geographically sub divided into their 3 areas of operation.Danube/Crimea/Kars.

Re: Hank: Turkish uniforms and kalafat

Hi Steve,

This is one of my Favourite websites go to the bottom of the page, select Turkey and the year you want and away you go for the next couple of hours.

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?level=1&title_id=269277

Hank outstanding Knowledge as always looking forward to your next diorama masterpiece.

Turkish uniforms and Vanson

Dear Hank
Re Vanson
"The material is extensive enough to at least provide a sort of basic framework, though many questions remain unanswered, and much of the following is necessarily speculative. Vanson did few colour sketches of the Turks, though he did provide a fair number of colour notes. Unfortunately, his handwriting is not always of the best, so his extensive notes can often be difficult to decipher, not helped by his frequent use of a sort of personal 'shorthand' which can often be quite obscure. Nevertheless, he stands head and shoulders above any other source"

C A Norman

For the purposes of modelling and painting figures of Ottoman troops of the period 1853-56 I agree with C A Norman. They provide a basic framework and he did take the time and trouble to view the sketches and notes in the Musée de l'Armée. I suppose if the illustrations in C A Norman's article were coloured he would be criticised for more speculation.
Vanson sketches and notes were from life and together with a few photos of Turkish soldiers provide evidence that would be hard to dismiss unless a better alternative has emerged. ILN pictures were based on sketches but engraved in the UK with a fair amount of artistic license. All evidence has caveats.
In the end we end up with the best guess for Kalafat or any other battle based on the paltry evidence available. Your dioramas speak for themselves and show an immersion in the subject which is creditable and fascinating.

David

Re: Turkish uniforms and Vanson

Hi Professori, no i disagree in a friendly way.The Vanson work is too late here, it would omit teh original uniforms.

I prefer to stand by teh lithographers sketches.The mass of early 1853 war artisits(Danube) portary a style of unifrom that Vanson has not captured,(more common use of baggy pants etc ).I stick my neck out here.Maybe he too was ovewhlemed by teh ottoman composition.perhaps he tries to solve the puzzle himslef.

Simialr thing to ww1 soft hats being skipped and just jump straight into helmet era.So It is important to start at teh begining.Not halfway thru when uniform productions were stepped up by teh portes war chest.
I think stating at Vanson is misleading.

However it is good to debate as more evidence is usually procured when these debate happen.SO tehre should be no loser if something else is found.It is good Vanson remains teh midddle /crimean peninsula war period.It should not ty to precede hard evidence of earleir years.

It is fun to try and shoulder weight but everything apaert, oitting emotions to the side, teh Lithographs of 1853 are factual documentation/observations by several artistes not just one person.

I stand my ground my friend ,time wil tell as it usually does but we can still shake teh hands and laugh aboiut it .Okay have fun

Re: Turkish uniforms and Vanson

Thanks everybody for these further references and words of wisdome: i shall have no excuse for not getting down to some painting now.

all the best, steve

Re: Turkish uniforms and Vanson

Author is Émile Vanson
Title is Crimée, Italie, Mexique: Lettres De Campagnes, 1854-1867,


as i say 1854 is later for me.plus he was in crimean peninsula not danube