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Re: Truly international battle

How do you figure Charlie was an Italian? His father was a Stuart and his mother was Polish.Royal families then were basically all internationals.
He was born & did grow up in Italy but this no more makes him Italian than US President Barrack Obama Indonesian.
donald

Re: Re: Truly international battle

Hear, hear! for Donaldwilliambrown!
I forgot to add the same point earlier. Someone born in exile can't help their birthplace.

Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart

Hi Donald.

Today we walk around with passports and social security numbers and our nationality is very clear. I dont think that was true back then.

Charles father was born in London but left while still a baby and lived in France until 1715 when we moved to Italy, where he lived for the rest of his life. I guess this makes him either French or Italian, depending on your viewpoint. As you say, his mother was Polish. He himself was born in Rome and raised in Italy, serving a while in the French army but mostly being in his father's sham court in Rome. He spoke Italian, plus English, French and Latin with a strong Italian accent (not surprising really). All royalty spoke French and Latin, so these are no indicators of nationality. After the failure of the '45 he returned to Italy, where he lived the rest of his life. To me that makes him pretty clearly Italian.

I would turn the question around and ask what nationality you think he was. Simply having a Scottish name means nothing today and was no more significant then. My name has Scottish and Irish roots but I am in no way Scottish or Irish. Charles hoped to regain his family's inheritance which was the triple crowns of England, Scotland and Ireland, but since he had never been to any of those places and was legally banned from doing so he cant be described as being any of those nationalities.

As you say, all royality then and now were a good international mix of national bloodlines, but if you could ask him I think he would say he was an Italian with a divine hereditory right to the triple crowns in an age when nationality was no bar to any European crown. Just look at his name!

Re: Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart

Hi, Job,
Firstly I must say I love having this type of discussion with a well informed fellow who doesn't have an axe to grind. We both know this discussion isn't terribly important or capable of being resolved.
But it's fun!
OK: BPC's names. The first two are English. James 1, his great, grandfather was the Scottish monarch who fairly thoroughly Anglicised himself. The next, Louis, was an attempt to suck up to the French king in order to gain the needed military support to invade Britain. Casimir is Polish. I'd guess the next three names (Sylvester, Severino & Maria) are Italian but also a sign of his Catholic heritage. Stuart is Scottish.
What nationality did he think he was? I don't know but I'd think maybe "British" or "English"?

"Today we walk around with passports and social security numbers and our nationality is very clear. I dont think that was true back then.
Nor is it now. I'm Scottish with a British passpoert, my wife's Italian with a European one. The kids were born here in Australia where we live and are eligible for Australian, British & EU passports. They qualify as, say, citizens of Norway & Greece even though they have no connection.
I don't think Charlie was an Italian.
"My heart's in the Hielands
My heart is not here.
My heart's in the Hielans
A chasing the deer."

Re: Re: Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart

Hi Donald

Actually its Jon - my fingers seem to hit the wrong keys more and more these days!

I suppose the question would be how many generations does it take before someone away from their original homeland feels like they belong to their new home and not the old. Must have been a question for many immigrants over the years. I would agree that the Stuarts quickly anglicised themselves so it really depends on how Charles was brought up. The romantic propaganda of a thoroughly Scottish 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' was always a fiction but a useful tool in trying to raise rebellion. Ultimately what matters is what was in his heart, so who knows!

While I would welcome jacobites I suspect a figure for Charles will shortly appear as the new Poltava set looks like it has some suitable officers that would do. If SR or anyone else does jacobites please remember they were not all highlanders in kilts!

Re: Re: Re: Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart

Hi, Jon,
As you clearly know, there were English & Scots on both sides. Although numbers involved in military actions were small, the rebellion had the potential to profoundly change the course of British history.
I'd guess you have an opinion on what would have happened if the Jacobites hadn't turned back at Derby.
Charlie, like any prince, would have sacrificed his loyal highlanders for personal gain. But he reputedly had a definite softspot for Scotland & the Scots throughout the rest of his long, tragic life.
I do know the Highlanders took him to their hearts to a large degree & I thnk this says something.
regards, donald

Exiles

Today many of us view nationality differently than our parent's generation did, and our parent's generation viewed it differently than most in the 17th and 18th century did. Having known second generation Cuban-Americans, Polish-British and Vietnamese in several countries I can tell you that those with an "exile" mentality view nationality differently than the rest of us. Their ultimate loyalty is to the land of their ancestors. Poniatowski for example was born on foreign soil and fought for the Austrians, but remained a Pole.

Regardless of their blood lines or where they lived to me it appears that both James and Charles Edward retained the sense that they were British. I am not so sure about Charles brother Henry. Whether their loyalty was to the Scotland of their more remote royal ancestors or to Great Britain of their more recent ancestors is something I am not sure about. I suspect if he had wanted to, Charles could have followed in the footsteps of his uncle Berwick and become a loyal servant of either the crown of Spain (IIRC he fought for them in Italy) or France.

Re: Re: Charles Edward Louis John Casimir Silvester Severino Maria Stuart

DWB,
I've always thought there was a misprint in the last line of that poem. From my own experience in the Hielands, it should have read: "A chasing the beer". It explains a lot.

Re: Charles Edward's accent

BTW, why would Prince Charlie have an Italian accent?
His tutor was Anglo-Irish and the court composed of Scots, Irish and English men and women.

Jacobites

You Chaps have very strange names for our things.
Freeway? you must mean Motorway.
Scotch? We drink that. Do you mean Scots?
Anyway, as a Hebridean I appreciate most things Scottish.
Did you know that a lot of Scottish schools teach the three 'Scottish'languages now.
They are English, Gaelic and Scots. The latter is really a dialec: on the lines of Robert Burns's writings.
I am looking forward to the Strelets Jacobites.

Re: Jacobites

I have 1/72 British and Jacobite armies.
For the Jacobites, BUM figures (which ARE usable) supplemented by 20mm Irregular Miniatures Highland figures, along with their Marlburian artillery figures, and some Zvezda GNW dragoons.
The British are mostly Zvezda GNW Swedish infantry and dragoons, Revell 7YW artillery and BUM highlanders/Irregular highlanders suitable painted.