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PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

Many will remember that some time ago there was a discussion on the possibility of Roman legionaries carrying flat shields during the classic imperial period. This was because of our criticism of the flat shields in the Strelets set of Roman Legion in Advance. While we maintained that such an object was not impossible we said they were not the standard nor common, so should not be in the set. Jan pointed out the wikipedia article on Roman Military Personal Equipment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military_personal_equipment) which suggested flat shields. The reference for that comment was to a book which we have now acquired and added to our library. The entire sentence on which that comment was based reads:

"At times [the shield] kept its convex form, and at times (probably among the auxiliaries) it was flat."

Since we never doubted that auxiliaries carried flat shields we feel that our original comments on this set have been justified.

Just thought some of you might like closure on this discussion

Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

Okay so name the book !

Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

Probably "The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome" - Wargames Research Group - Phil Barker - 0904417174 - 9780904417173 or "The Complete Roman Army" - Thames & Hudson - Adrian Goldsworthy - 0500051240 - 9780500051245
They (PSR) are correct.

Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

If you follow the link (12) provided, it says;

Santosuosso, A., Soldiers, Emperors and Civilians in the Roman Empire, Westview, 2001, p.130

or possibly (11);

Roman Military Equipment from the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome (Paperback). M.C. Bishop, J.C. Coulston. Oxbow Books 2005. ISBN-10: 1842171593 ISBN-13: 978-1842171592

Re: Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

It was note 12 - "Storming the Heavens: Soldiers, Emperors and Civilians in the Roman Empire" by Antonio Santosuosso. (Page 130)

Re: Re: Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

im not convinvced ,i'd look more look at the period manufacturing process

one refernce is hardly enough for a scientific conclusion

Re: Re: Re: Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

I think PSR has a pretty strong case here. However, if anyone still disagrees, and bases that disagreement on that citation, it should be possible to get a definitive statement from Antonio Santosuosso.

Professor Santosuosso used to be quite active in the wargaming community (such as it was) in Southwestern Ontario. I don't know if he still is (I do know he has retired from his academic post at the University of Western Ontario). I remember playing with him at local cons in the late 80s or early 90s.

I'd be happy to ask him to comment, if this debate is still open.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

So far we primary evidence versus 21st century opinion.

Open and shut case. Curved!

Re: Re: Re: Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

We are talking about 1st-2nd c. AD shields, aren't we? OK.

This "one reference" is the QUINTESSENCE of many studies made by generations of archaeologists and historians of ancient history. It's a CONSENSUS about what was THE NORM, reached by the specialists in the field resulting from decades of research. If convincing new material justifying a significant re-assessment should emerge from somewhere, the consensus would be adjusted.

Of course, as already implied by PSR, this does not exclude exceptions. E.g., that in a case of emergency some legionary whose shield had been rendered useless during a fight might have picked up a dead auxiliary's flat shield lying around to continue the fight.
Or that soldiers of units counting originally among the auxiliary and then promoted legionary (such as the I and II Adiutrices legions, for example) may have continued to carry their flat shields till they were no longer useable or, more likely, till the new legionary shields were ready to be issued.
For, as others have already mentioned, quite clearly, the shield design was also determined by the different tactics used by legionaries and auxiliaries. During the classical period, legionaries were destined to fight in closer and more aggressive (shock) formation than auxiliaries. The shields of both categories of fighters were designed to meet their respective tactics best.

Certainly, there are more (reasons for) exceptions one could think of. But, quite obviously, during the 1st-2nd c. AD, THE NORM was that auxiliaries carried flat shields while those of the legionaries were curved. I think you should be able to live with this insight...

If not - who cares? At any rate, you'll have to live with the fact that I am convinced that the Turks are descended from the smurfs...

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

I think you'll find, Kaptn, that it was the Persians who were descended from the Smurfs(or perhaos the other way round)I cite the evidence of the Phrygian Cap, a clear eastern adaptation of the Smurf headgear. The Persians also carried flat shields, but there is no ecidence that the Smurfs used either curved or flat versions.

ARRGHHH!!!

The Persians? Ridiculous!

Sorry to say that you've absolutely NOT kept yourself in the picture. Evidently, you've overlooked my highly authoritative contribution on that matter, which is not only incomprehensible but even inpardonable. As I do not ordinarily repeat myself for the sake of any Tom, Dick, Harry or Ian, consider my referring you to the aforementioned terribly bright contribution an extraordinary favour (in case you can't follow you're just too stupid):

http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/2833323740/fetch/948773/3



Cheers and best regards

Re: ARRGHHH!!!

I was going to post the proof of those arguments on my blog but since there was no money in it I changed my mind.

Re: ARRGHHH!!!

Kaptn,
I bow to your meticulous research. OK. They're Turks. But obviously Turks on Blue Bayou(and we know a song about that). Kemal Attasmurf, eat yer heart out!

Re: PSR Romans Review - Flat Shields Revisited

Curved Scutums were made from three layers of very thin wood forming a simple ply construction the outer wood was different to the inner wood the idea was to prevent the shield splitting the layers were glued together and then covered, either all metal edges were used or stitched raw hide ones sometimes metal only at the top edge.. there are a number of variations on shape, the shields are heavy and not suited to light infantry..the curved shape is stronger and gives more protection to the body whilst enabling easier use of the short sword...
By Contrast the flat shield is made of thin single planks glued edge to egde and reinforced with a metal or rawhide edging usually stitched on, the shields are thin and fairly light and are ideal for light infantry use and was commonly used by the enemies of rome, indeed this would be the type of shield the Auxiliarys would be used too in there native tribes.... Trajans coloumn in particlar shows the diffence in legionary and auxiliary shields although it should be remembered it is artistic in its interpretation.... I would not rule out flat shields being used by Legionaires but I dont think it is currently excepted in Archeological circles.....

Cheers

Thanks PSR - I really like your Amazon links!!!

Re: Flat/curved Roman shields:

Perhaps Strelets could simply produce a sprue of curved legionary shields so that the pedants among us can do our own modifications? The production costs shouldn't be too high, and I'd certainly be interested in buying several boxes worth...

Re: Re: Flat/curved Roman shields:

Try converting them mike, with at least half of the bods it just won´t work, not only that the model ends up ruined but the other available shields eg, hat- too small, Italeri- big hole in the middle, Zvezda - same problem.
Basically, Legionaries-Curved, Auxillaries-Flat.