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Dismounted Mongols

Looking forward to this set as it seems to be the first in plastic to depict the classic unarmoured Mongol warrior, even if they are dismounted cavalry. One big question though - the masters seem to show many equipped with shields - is this correct? My reading would seem to suggest not...

Re: Dismounted Mongols

Dear Steve B

Yes they used wicker shields called Bambai especially when fighting as siege troops. The Strelets' pics are low res so it is hard to see the actual shape but the "boss" forms the centre of the windings and the shield should be held by two straps on the forearm.

Peter Dennis's illustration of the the siege of Ulsan (in this instance Manchu Chinese) in Osprey FOR67 Japanese Castles in Korea shows how they may have been used. Some of the Strelets' shields ought to be a little higher to protect the face.

Another point- The Mongols drew the bowline to the cheek and used the thumb. A great technique but you would need a thumb ring if you did not want to permanently injure your thumb. The fleshy part of the thumb would rest below the cheekbone. This is known as the Mongolian release.


David

Re: Dismounted Mongols

OK, thanks, David. I'm still doubtful about how common the shield was. Three Ospreys (MAA 105, MAA 251 and Warrior 84) give the impression that they were not widely used and even then only by a minority of heavy cavalry, mainly when dismounted.

The books use primary pictorial sources from as wide apart as Raschid-al-Din's "World History" to the picture scrolls of the Mongol Invasions of Japan plus contemporary descriptions from such as John of Piano Carpini and Marco Polo.

The only Mongol "shields" that appear in the Invasions of Japan scrolls are large rectangular wicker pavises used by infantry who are probably Chinese or Korean subjects.

I'd much prefer that the shields were separate items so we could make our own choice (as I wished they had been with the Zvezda and Italeri sets too).

Would welcome any further comments.

Thanks,
S

shields

Dear Steve B

Depends how you are to use the figures. It also depends on the period and the enemy. I am not sure how common they were but then who is? Primary illustrative sources for example are Chinese (Yuan) or Persian and are excellent evidence but give little indication as to the preponderance of certain weapon types.
The illustration of the Battle of the River Kalka in Warrior 84 shows mounted heavy cavalry with shields. Kalka River, 98 in the Campaign series also shows Mongols with shields. For Kalka River 1223 which I think is what Strelets have in mind then they seem right. For the invasion of Japan probably not.

I can't fault Strelets proportion of shields in the set as a Mongol group benefits from variety irrespective of proportions of weapon types. The Zvezda set suffers from not having enough poses for the dismounted figures. These Strelets figures should be a great addition.
Removable shields multiplies the options so that is the best of all worlds. They could go on the forearm, horse, the warrior's back or left in the yurt. Not to be though.

David

Re: Dismounted Mongols

Hi David,

It's interesting that Stephen Turnbull seems to have performed a bit of an "about-turn" in his second Osprey book on the Mongols (Warrior 84) in showing so many heavy troops carrying shields at Kalka River. In his first, MAA 105, he states:

"The heavy cavalry...may have carried shields. Some illuminated manuscripts show small, round shields in use but the most reliable sources emphasize that shields were only carried when the soldier was on foot. A large skin or wicker shield was employed while on sentry duty and large tortoise-like ones for assaulting walls."

Even so, I'm sometimes distrustful of modern colour plates as they can include highly contentious elements that are often taken as fact.

Looking at primary sources again, of two Raschid Al-Din illustrations included in the Ospreys, one shows seven mounted heavy cavalry none of whom are carrying a shield. The other depicts a siege with a trebuchet and includes one dismounted heavy warrior carrying a small shield and four other figures who do not.

I agree the Strelets' masters scan is a bit unclear but of the twelve poses, seven have shield in hand whilst a further two *seem* to to carry a shield on their back. That's three-quarters. Additionally many seem to be dismounted *light* cav for which there is no evidence of shields whatsoever.

Again, I hope Strelets review this before the figures are released.

Thanks,
S

Re: Re: Dismounted Mongols

Dear Steve B
I think Stephen Turnbull is used to the level of documentation associated with Japanese history and very adept with Japanese language sources so turning to the Mongols would be more difficult as there has to be much more guess work. The alternative to guess work would be anthropological study and many of the revisions of our understanding of the Mongols are based on that.
Raschid al-Din was the author of the Jami al-Tawarikh but the illustrations and calligraphy would have been done in a workshop. Their accuracy would be a little like European illuminated manuscripts of the same time. I think from a modeller's point of view you either accept it or don't. I personally feel there isn't any right or wrong. For example the archers in the illustrations are drawing to the upper sternum (Manubrium)and modern Mongol archers would say this is wrong. Does that mean the rest is inaccurate, well some of the illustrations of Hulagu look good enough to be portraits. Likewise with 13th/14th c European manuscripts, the way weapon handling is depicted is often wrong but other things are surprisingly accurate.
For fear of repetition where there is no definitive authority ( true also of European armies at this time) then it seems sensible to offer the modeller a choice.
BTW looking at the Persian manuscript it would nice to have some Abbasid troops. The Mongol army at this time had sizeable Chinese elements as well as Turks Persians, Christian (Georgians) and so on.



David