i always question the accuracy of period paintings, as to who commissioned painting , motive, artists sources, political positions, when painting was done etc

over the years i've walked many WSS battlefields Flanders , Bavaria , Italy , Spain, and visited many museums across Europe, love Arsenal Museum in Vienna, had many discussions with curators , uniformolgists, dioramaists across Europe, interesting and informative times

yes i love the new cuirassiers sets too and can think of many uses for them on wargames table

Victory to Ukraine
cheers Old John

It's always a good idea to question sources ... :wink:, that's true for both period paintings (and you're absolutely right one has to look at when the painting was actually done) and for later sources who have a tendency to just copy from "authorities".

Viz.: Knötel has a uniform plate of the Austrian "Los Rios" regiment (1704-1720) in a green uniform, Grant lists them thus in his Marlboroughs armies ("Walloon" "Dark green"), only there were no Walloon regiments in the Austrian army during the WoSS, these were Dutch National regiments, raised 1706 and only became Austrian after the Spanish Netherlands became Austrian - after the war. Mugnai copies the error. Besides the uniforms, were not green but initially grey as can be seen from documents in Secrét d'Etat Belge - which admittedly are a bit harder too find), they may have been green after the WoSS.

Back to the cuirassiers, according to Kühn/Hall, the helmet fell more and more out of use during the war.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Battle_of_Chiari%2C_1701.png no helmets
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/BattleofTurin.JPG no helmets
https://jenikirbyhistory.getarchive.net/amp/media/louis-laguerre-1663-1721-possibly-a-triptych-of-scenes-from-the-battle-of-blenheim-7de44a no helmets
https://st.museum-digital.de/singleimage.php?imagenr=22629 with helmets

Bavarians: As to Münich, Friedrich: Geschichte der Entwicklung der bayerischen Armee seit zwei Jahrhunderten, Munich 1864 the cuirassiers dropped the helmet during the campaigns on the Rhine and replaced it with the tricorne.
In the Electoral residence of Schleißheim in Bavaria, there are a number of tapestries depicting the campaign in Flanders during the Nine Years war (probably made between 1700 and 1720) in the antechamber of the Elector (Vorzimmer des Kurfürsten), showing cuirassiers with tricornes. Incidentally made in Belgium by the same manufacturer as the Blenheim tapestries.

https://www.360-bayern.de/panos/schlbay/obay/schl-sns/index.htm take the virtual tour

Doesn't mean they were never ever worn during the WoSS in the western theatre, but there it is ...

Still, I'll love to paint the Strelets Cuirassiers! :relaxed:

Tried to find Dan Schorr's website, but no luck so far. I understand he died last year, that's probably the reason. Do you have any link that's still working?

Bonny Dundee wore a breast plate and pot at Killiecrankie in 1689, so some of these will end up with my Jacobites.

They most certainly are very useful for a number of periods: Turkish Wars, Nine Years War and I'm certain they'll find there way into many a 30YW and English Civil War scenario as well, doesn't take too much conversion effort. So great sets, just wish they had been issued twenty years ago ... 😏

That was me ‘moaning about wasting money’ as you phrased it. 😄

As a point of order and just to put the record straight I DID look at the masters. What I didn’t do was look up the historical references for cuirassiers uniforms at Blenheim and other battles in the WSS. 🤦🏻

These are diverse and I am still unconvinced that anyone knows with certainty whether or not pot helmets were worn. Had I done my research first I would have given it more consideration and probably wouldn’t have spent money on these figures, beautiful as they are, the same as I haven’t bought the French musketeer figures with the short muskets, or the pikemen.

As the saying goes ‘caveat emptor’!

They may of course be useful for a slightly earlier era, the War of the League of Augsburg?

I truly hope a peaceful solution is found to this appalling war soon so no more lives are lost. But my few pounds spent probably makes no difference in the scheme of things.

Best wishes

Now don't be to too harsh on the fellows, they look very good. Personally I'd say, on the wargames table it doesn't matter that much. For a diorama, perhaps a bit more, but then you don't want the same twelve poses over and over again, so you'll be glad to have some for conversions and swapping some heads is the easiest part.

On a side note, the Austrians and Bavarians did not need to receive new outfits to switch to the tricorne, they had both tricorne and casket, the casket was worn in battle only, the tricorne on the march and on all other occasions. The casket was apparently not very much liked, especially in cold and hot weather. Besides, the tricorn had a "secret" (steel inlay) for additional protection. The casket sems to have had some use against Turkish arrows though.

Then again. we're all going to buy lots of those Dutch cuirassiers, don't we!

As for pikes, look here https://uurl.kbr.be/1738485/p15
drawing by Filippo Pallotta showing Spanish troops in Italy crossing the river Po in June 1702. two troops with pikes have just crossed the river, also note the cavalry in the foreground, the hats not yet tricornes. There's a coloured version somewhere, where they have yellow coats and green facings.

So some pikes after all ... :wink:

Hello Flambeau,

the book you mentioned (https://uurl.kbr.be/1738485/p15) is a wonderful historical source.

I found a great plan of the siege of Kaiserwerth Fortress in 1702 in it. It also lists the troops involved (S. 59).

I live only 30 km from Kaiserwerth and have visited the former WSS-battlefield there several times. However, it is very difficult to understand the situation at that time in the landscape. Because during the three-month siege, the fortress, which was not very big anyway, was completely destroyed. And after the conquest, the moats that you see above in this reconstruction drawing were completely filled in.

https://www.duesseldorf-tourismus.de/attraktionen/kaiserpfalz-kaiserswerth-34e2446ecd

The stones and earth from the demolished ramparts were used for this purpose. So the fortress was "sunk" in the moats and thus lost its island character. The situation as it is found today is shown on the map below the drawing.

At my first visit i wondered how the french could hold this little fortress for so long. Because today you can simply walk into Kaiserswerth. But if you look at the reconstruction drawing, it becomes clear that the siege troops in 1702 had to overcome these 70 meter wide moats. And these moats were up to 4 meters deep.
The fortress of Kaiserwerth in 1702 must have looked much like the reconstructed fortress of Bourtagne today. But in a position directly at the Rhein-River.. and covered by artillery support batteries on the other side of the great river..

https://www.elisevanheck.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Bourtange_Elize_van_Heck_partner_mecenaatvorming_1.jpg

Today you can only find the remains of the Kaiser-Pfalz-Building, which the German Emperor Barbarossa had built there. But this castle-like structure was also badly damaged during the siege and then partially blown up as part of the clearing of the fortress.

https://travel.sygic.com/de/poi/kaiserpfalz-kaiserswerth-poi:47038

The town of Kaiserswerth, which was the largest town in the surrounding area until 1702, then fell into ruins. About 10 km away, today's big city of Düsseldorf came into being, while Kaiserswerth sank down to a small village.
So the WSS has also left its mark in my home area.

And also the colored plan of the Battle of Piacenza in 1746 (in another war) on page 189 of the book is a wonderful historical source. All military units involved are also listed there.

Thank you for this great information. :+1:

You're welcome!

If you're looking for more interesting maps, lots of stuff can be found here:

http://www.digam.net/exposition.php?exp=177 look under

WHK 11 -16: Spanischer Erbfolgekrieg 1701-1714 bis zum Frieden von Rastatt and click on "Dokumente"
files 11.21 to 11.26 are on Kaiserswerth

they've got an enormous amount of maps and contemporary OoB's. Much better than in many modern books.

Another great source:

https://militarymaps.rct.uk/war-of-the-spanish-succession-1701-14

Ah, and of course more info here:

http://kronoskaf.com/wss/index.php?title=1702_%E2%80%93_Siege_of_Kaiserswerth

Thank you very much !

Wonderful sources, maps and other material...

Need more time to research all this information.

:astonished: :heart_eyes:

Brilliant links/sources many thanks, rec'd new Cuirassiers on Saturday, so many possibilities for conversions , painting etc the Austrian Mounted Drummer is an amazing sculpt, many congrats to sculptor, can't recall any maker in plastic or metal has done this figure before
Looking at figures another possible use is German Reiters in Polish/Lithuanian service for Vienna 1683
Figures for Schellenberg (ok lousy spelling) Black Watch Miniatures in Germany do a set of mounted and dismounted Horse Grenadiers (in metal) for this battle

again well done to Strelets and team
Victory to Ukraine
cheers Old John

found this link for Dan Schorr

https://web.archive.org/web/20030215015513/http://www.megalink.net/~dschorr/saxonarmy.html

cheers Old John

link to article first published on Dan Schorr's website many years back

https://pdffox.com/danish-uniforms-1699-1712-pdf-free.html

think colour plates of 1st Jyske Cuirassiers and Hungarian Dragoons in Danish service there

hope above useful
Victory to Ukraine
cheers Old John

Thanks for the links! I actually had the pdf (by Snorrason/Henriksen) for some time but had all but forgotten about the 1st Jyske! Thanks for the reminder! It's an excellent study, I really should re-read it carefully before painting some Danes!


As for the kettle-drummers, I like them a lot! Take a look here:

https://www.rct.uk/collection/404897/the-battle-of-chiari-1701

Ummmh, just checked again, and yes while the 1st Jyske may actually have had helmets, they did not take part in the WoSS ... could be used for a fictional wargame though or the GNW.

True as you say, but as i'm first and foremost a wargamer, if figures look good i'll use them, when first got interested in WSS/GNW period the only figures available were in metal, like Les Higgins, Alberken, Douglas Miniatures, Warrior, Minifigs S range etc but since Strelets and a couple of other makers began producing plastic figures for WSS/GNW , my armies have skyrocketed in numbers :grinning:

another possible use of the cuirassiers see
The Last Ironsides English Expedition to Portugal 1662-1668 by Jonathan Riley published by Helion in UK

cheers Old John
Victory to Ukraine

Sigh, I wish someone had produced Ironsides in this quality 20 or 30 years ago. Never materialized. So I sold all my 30years cavalry and switched to 28mm for this period. You can't have everything I guess ...