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may I draw your attention to this contemporary picture of the Brunswickers in action at Quatre Bras?
We had the discussion before and of course there's always room for debate, but this picture shows the rank and file all standing, rather than the front rank kneeling after the British fashion. As the Brunswick corps was mainly made up of raw conscripts there may not have been time to implement British drill. So perhaps no need for kneeling Brunswickers ...
That said, with regard to British troops, I support your desire for more kneeling figures. Also, we might need some more kneeling Frenchmen, just look at the description by Beamish of the action at Garcia Hernandez:
" the [KGL dragoons] forced onward and bringing up their right flank, appeared before the enemy's bayonets on two sides of the square. The two front ranks, kneeling, presented a double row of deadly steel, while in the rear of these, the steady muskets of four standing ranks were levelled at the devoted horsemen."
Without re-opening the 'Did only British troops have kneeling ranks in square?' debate, I think it is worth adding that one of the problems in designing any Napoleonic Infantry set which aims to cover more than one specific tactical formation, is that it has to be useable for a range of different purposes: these may be diorama-building, or wargaming, or simply 'for display'.
A set consisting of enough kneeling figures to create two whole kneeling ranks, with two standing behind, would not be of great interest to me. The reason is that I create 'wargames style' units, and lots of kneeling figures just doesn't fit the bill. Kneeling figures in my 1/72 world are mainly useful to represent skirmishers, with an occasional battalion with a kneeling rank. But most of the figures will ideally be doing something 'useful' like firing, advancing, or marching, rather than getting their knees muddy.
Strangely enough, for all its faults, the very old Airfix Waterloo British infantry set kind of got it right in terms of proportions. With about 36 'useful' on-foot figures here (I'm discounting the 3 ridiculous crawling-on-the-ground figures, the 2 casualties, the bugler and the mounted officer), this set gave us 8 kneeling, the rest standing, poses. Although very much accident rather than design in this set, this approximate 1 in 4 kneeling ratio seems to have worked.
Agreed, for wargames purposes, standing figures are better suited, as sooner or later they are supposed to move, which is not very well represented by kneeling figures. Diorama builders will of course have other priorities, so a set like the Waterloo 1815 Highlanders in square will be a lot more interesting to them.
The old Revell British infantry set did also very well here, lots of usefull figures for every purpose.
The whole point of a set being in square....is its meant to have troops suitable for being in square!! It wasn't so hard for sets titled Marching, attack, standing at..., so why is it such a problem now??
If someone doesn't want kneeling figures in a British set, fine, just don't buy a set titled "in square"!! As any true set for a British line in square will have just as many kneeling as standing poses, such was the way a square was deployed by British troops.
Also who said that there had to be 2 kneeling ranks & 2 standing? Depends how you want to set up your figures depending on scale. Someone could have a single rank of kneeling with a single rank of standing stood behind.
Joy of having a properly balanced set of kneeling/standing is it allows the customer to mathmatically build up a square however he/she wants.
The Highlanders in square wasn't. It was a half baked effort & not really a set suitable for making highlanders in square when used on its own, unless some of the standing figures were unused, making the set not cost effective.
Even if someone was to do 1 rank kneeling and 2 ranks standing, the standing poses would not of made 2 equal sensible ranks, with some of the wildly dramatic poses included.
If a British in square set is to be made, it MUST have a true 50/50 split between kneeling poses & standing. Otherwise, to be totally frank, just don't bother.
Flambeau yes I am aware of certain sources depicting Brunswick troops like that, but I also believe that when they had battalions like the Foot Guards close by at Waterloo, they may very well of adopted the style. (Having seen it in action & perhaps copied it).
Many diorama's have shown the Brunswickers with kneeling ranks. In fact General Picton, who has just displayed part of his huge diorama, has some Brunswick squares with kneeling ranks, having seem them on his site.
If Strelets make the Brunswickers in square as a all standing set or as a British like kneeling/standing 50/50 split is up to them. I would probably buy either if nicely done.
And yes agreed about the French. As you say, Garcia Hernandez is a good example, plus I believe some battalions managed to form square during the counter attack by the Union Brigade at Waterloo (Durutte's Division I think).
But please make a British in square set properly. I have already been let down by a poor firing line set. If a "in square" set suffers the same fate, I may just give up.
sure, Strelets has made a lot of dedicated sets, marching, at ease, at the ready, standing shoulder arms etc., so indeed there's no reason not to make some "in square" sets. It might even contain more kneeling figures than standing, given the fact that we already have a lot of standing firing, loading poses from other sets. But a proper 50/50 set will surely find it's buyers.
And while the exact formation of certain nations squares is an interesting topic that might warrant some research, when it comes to building a diorama it's of course still the choice of the people doing it how they do it, as long as the result pleases them. I'd even say as long as kids say "wow" and it encourages their interest in history it's perfectly fine and let's leave the rest to the academics.
Flambeau I couldn't agree more.
Before we provide a set for each possible scenario for a handful of troop types, how about filling the gaps of those no one has produced anything of? The Netherlands Carabineers and Prussian Artillery train spring to mind (and HaT seem to have died)
Seeing as Strelets started the new range of Napoleonics rolling with "sets for each scenario", I think these should be a continual project over the course of a year.
A British Infantry in square set is very important to me, due to the amount of them I need to make.
We already had a Highlander in square set from Waterloo 1815, and now the new one from Strelets. And yet highlanders still in kilted uniform were only 3 battalions at Waterloo.
So I think it only fair that the regular British infantry get a set of their own. Then there is of course the other nations. The Brunswicks too provided more battalions than the highlanders, yet they too have not had as much coverage.
I agree massively about Dutch/Belgian Carabiniers. Also Dutch/Belgian Hussars. However I would hope for better horses & trooper poses far more suitable for a battlefield setting like those of the WSS range, if they do all get made.
Prussian Horse artillery is a glaring omission too.
Hello Brian, thankfully HaT are still alive. They are presently shipping their three 1/72nd WWI Italian sets. And, some 1/32nd sets.
I agree with you that the Netherlands Carabineers are long overdue.I wonder if Strelets will be keen to make artillery trains. If they are, it would be great to see them in other eras and theatres. Including WSS, and I would dearly love to have the WWI Royal Horse Artillery with horses and limbers, with 13 pounders for the Palestine theatre.
I would rarther strelets would complete the nappy Sets that are listed on the PSR website then I would be able to complete some more of armies that have been in limbo for far too long:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: .
Those sets are I assume already "planned" by Strelets hence them mentioning them.
The whole point of this thread I started was to find out if a set of British Line in "square" and a set of Brunswick Line Infantry in "square" was also planned. I never said they had to take priority over anything else in particular.
Strelets has structured their new Napoleonics on various types of drill, so it's an ongoing project by them I imagine.
Hasn't stopped sets not related to that being released at the same time has it?
If Strelets do plan more "in square" sets, my other point was to make sure a set of British in square was more evenly balanced between kneeling & standing poses, compared to what the highlanders in square set was like.
Same for a Brunswick Line Infantry set, unless Strelets decide to go down the all standing route for these, as some sources claim they did when in square.
As to the Brunswickers, whether in or out of square I'd be happy to see some Line and Light infantry here, preferably in action (shooting/loading). All that has been made so far, both by HaT and Strelets is the Leib-Battalion + some (too few) spare heads by HaT, but none of the regular infantry, but please, please NOT "at ease" or "at arms" ... yawn ...
I agree Flambeau.
The Light/Line battalions (3 of each were present), need some attention now, & as you say, preferably in a more active role.
Roger has my full support in his request for Brunswickers and in Square. I'd like to add my two Pennyworth, and request some Brunswick cavalry that includes the Duke of Brunswick - and some civilians. . . Please.
Before any says that they don't want four Dukes of Brunswicks in each box, I would like to suggest a bonus figure on the lines that Caesar Miniatures used to do.
Waterloo 1815 already produced the Duke in their " Napoleonic Mounted Line Officers " set .
Thanks Murat, very much appreciated.
I also like your idea of including the Duke of Brunswick himself within a cavalry set. Maybe himself & the general staff officer who took over upon his death?
There is also the Brunswick Avant Garde. There is the Jager set out there (which I find a bit tall & lanky!), but nothing for the black uniformed, Dolman wearing light companys of the Avant Garde. Same type of hat though (don't know its name).
You know there's a nice Duke of Brunswick in the excellent Waterloo 1815 Napoleonic Mounted Line Officers set, do you?
Aldog & Flambeau.
I think what Murat meant was a Duke of Brunswick pose more in keeping with leading the cavalry, rather than a generic pose. At least I guess that to be the case, if sticking him in a set of cavalry. Not sure off top of my head, but wasn't the Duke fatally wounded when he was leading his cavalry?
But you guys are both right in saying Waterloo1815 have a nice Duke of Brunswick figure, as they also do for the Prince of Orange & Picton. I actually think they missed a trick not including other members of general staff in that set. A dedicated seperate set of line officers would of been better to focus exclusively on those, so people didnt get another Duke, Prince or Picton everytime they wanted normal officers.
Instead we could have had Sir Roland Hill, Rebeque, D'Erlon, Reille, Chasse, Bylandt, Somerset, Ponsonby, Kellerman, Milhaud etc etc.
Focusing on the 18th of June, I haven't needed a Duke of Brunswick as he was already dead, but it would still be nice having him leading his cavalry for those who want to do Quatre Bras.
I though am in need of a more typical member of the Brunswick general staff, preferably mounted, so Colonel Olfermann can assume command!!
To be honest though, having a pose of a "personality" out there already is irrelevant, when you consider Strelets put another Napoleon in their recent Chasseurs set. I dread to think how many of him I have hiding in my collection!!!
Right. And also Strelets made some nice Napoleonic General staff sets in the past, French, British/Austrian and Russian/Prussian, though the combined sets had only dismounted figures. I'd really like to see these as mounted sets as they did them for ACW.
I also would like symmetry in the poses as it makes making firing lines easier when we are ordering boxes, I would also like a second flag bearer for British sets as they always had the two flags (Great to see the Russian jager with a bare pole as their is no way I could ever paint the flag well).
I am sure for those of us that always mess up trying make flag bearers from other figures it would be a great improvement especially for countries that carried two flags into battle. I know another company makes a command box but I would love a command box by the strelets sculptor so that it matches the figures he has sculpted.
We are always wanting more on this forum but it is only because we want to create the most accurate formations and by asking for more we are helping to create that "perfect" set. which should lead to better sales for Strelets.