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Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

There was a technique that someone described where instead of one man holding several sets of reins, the dragoons looped their reins over the head of the horse next to them.
The possibilities for disaster with this system are vast. Not least needing to untangle all of the mounts in the case of a hasty departure, or the ease with which ten horses can ignore the wishes of a horse holder and drag him hither and yon.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

Alan Buckingham
The reins are wrong, but can be cut off easily enough, and the horse holders, there could be more than one if done the same way as command figures, ie cut off section from a sprue.
Yes they are, because very obviously they are over the horses' necks. And yes, this is easy to fix.

An alternative view, which will appeal to wargamers, is that actually not every figure on foot needs to have an equivalent horse. So a base of one horse holder with three or four horses 'represents' the horses for a 12 figure firing line, waiting to be mounted again. The remaining c. 8 horses (assuming a 12 figure + 12 horses set) are then freed up to be used for mounted figures from other sets, should you want standing horses; in which case the reins and lack of stirrups are no longer an issue.

There are a couple of figures in this set that could easily be converted to horse holders as well, should one holder to four horses be required.

Will still be interesting to hear about Strelets' plans for numbers of figures in this set.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

All that's needed is the will to produce quality figures. Evidently, some manufacturers would need special incentives - such as quality-conscious customers who don't swallow everything - while for others producing well-researched and well-designed figures goes without saying.

http://www.eborminiatures.com/products-page/wss-french-dragoons/wss-french-dragoon-regiment-dismounted-wssfdrd01/

What can be done in metal can be done in plastics, too.

Pity ...

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

Handlewithcare
All that's needed is the will to produce quality figures. Evidently, some manufacturers would need special incentives - such as quality-conscious customers who don't swallow everything - while for others producing well-researched and well-designed figures goes without saying.

http://www.eborminiatures.com/products-page/wss-french-dragoons/wss-french-dragoon-regiment-dismounted-wssfdrd01/

What can be done in metal can be done in plastics, too.

Pity ...
Nice figures etc...But I can buy 3-4 times as many dragoons for the same price from Strelets, and once painted the end effect will be much the same.

If I wanted to spend lots more money on my collection than I have already, I'd have gone down the 28mm-30mm route years ago.

It's a simple sum. What's the problem?

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

"What's the problem?"

The problem is that you completely ignore what we are talking about here, namely missing stirrups and wrongly placed reins. What has this to do with scale (what can be done in 28mm can be done in 1/72 as well), the number of figures, or prices? Actually, nothing.


"The lack of stirrups on the horses is a minor error, but can be 'solved' with a little ingenuity and some careful modelling with Green Stuff or Milliput extra fine."

Really? Please, go ahead and do it. And post the results here, please. I'm eager to see what you achieve.

Well, it would have been neither difficult nor exprensive to add some separate stirrups as I had suggested elsewhere.

"... it just doesn't make sense not to include riderless horses in a kit that includes horse holders. And horses without a rider have to be equipped with stirrups. That's obvious, after all, isn't it? Anyone who wants to man the standing horses with riders can simply cut away the stirrups. Nothing easier than that. Conversely, it is virtually impossible to add stirrups if you actually want to use the horses without riders. This should be apparent to everyone [...] Separate pairs of stirrups whose leathers would be provided with tiny pegs that fit into equally tiny holes in the horses' flanks could be a viable solution to the problem. Or, even simpler, the stirrup leathers could be bent at a right angle at their upper ends by the modeller himself, at any length he deemed suitable for his purposes, and put into the holes. Who prefers mounted riders could easily omit the stirrups and tamp the holes - possibly, the holes wouldn't be visible beneath the rider's legs, anyway - , and those who prefer riderless horses would be grateful for having the option to add stirrups. Hardly a lot of extra work for the sculptor, and not likely to cause noteworthy additional expenditure."

Everybody would have been happy...

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

Handlewithcare
"What's the problem?"

The problem is that you completely ignore what we are talking about here, namely missing stirrups and wrongly placed reins. What has this to do with scale (what can be done in 28mm can be done in 1/72 as well), the number of figures, or prices? Actually, nothing.


.
Price? Yes of course it counts for something, unless price is not an issue ie: you are rich enough to have a collection of 25,000+ 28mm plastics and metals. Presumably you are?

And everything is relative. So compared with what those of us who have been collecting/modelling/painting 1/72 plastics since the 1970s had way back then, these figures are a revelation. But maybe you were not around when nearly everything mounted started as an Airfix Waterloo French cavalry cuirassier, and had to be converted?


Re: Stirrup conversions: Wait and see, you may be surprised.

But in the meantime, and given this is a Forum about 1/72 plastics and not the 'bigger stuff', why don't you tell us about your 1/72 collection, the sets that in your view are 'correct', and your own stash of Strelets figures? Would be refreshingly positive.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

I'm not rich and this issue has nothing to do with prices. It has to do with quality-consciousness and yes, mine is obviously higher than other people's. Can't help.

My wallet just let me know that its money will be spent elsewhere, sorry ...

BTW, I started with collecting, painting, and converting Airfix figures in the 70s too but was never interested in wargaming. I've always been a diorama builder and historical accuracy as well as anatomically correct proportions and realistic poses have always been top priority to me. The predilections of others is not of my business, though. So, if you're satisfied with everything you get, enjoy ...

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

More of the same ...

https://cranntaraminiatures.co.uk/product/french-dragoon-horse-holder-and-horses/

... and, on one occasion, even Italeri tried and got making stirrups around right (last figure): :smirk:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=713

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

I think these figures look pretty bloomin' good. I'll certainly be buying a few. And the box work is great-hopefully this will be the style for other forthcoming sets.

As with most sets out there on the market, there could be minor things done better. Stirrups/reins-I'll make my peace with them not being right. I'd view these as small issues overall when I believe other features of the figures look excellent. Perhaps Strelets will learn from this, perhaps they won't. But they are producing overall good quality figures, quickly and at a cheap price. I'm not sure I'd call it the customer 'swallowing' it, if they are complimenting what they see and purchasing it. Some people's standards and expectations will be higher than mine, but these are just plastic (or metal) miniatures to paint and enjoy. Stirrups or no stirrups...

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

I am with you Rich.

What marvellous looking figures. What fine looking horse-flesh. Not only beautifully sculpted, but mighty useful too.

Regards, James

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

Handlewithcare
"The lack of stirrups on the horses is a minor error, but can be 'solved' with a little ingenuity and some careful modelling with Green Stuff or Milliput extra fine."

Really? Please, go ahead and do it. And post the results here, please. I'm eager to see what you achieve.
I do understand your dissatisfaction, but I don't think it's likely that Strelets will change the figures and you did ask, so here's a pic showing that I did once make a stirrup and stirrup leather from sewing cotton and white glue (or perhaps fabric stiffener, I don't recall).

It is possible, it was just very fiddly. I do plan to do a few more like this, I'm just not in a big hurry. I'm sure there are better modelers than I here who would find this easy to do.



I'm not a horsey type myself but I'm sure that when dismounting I've seen them sliding the stirrup up the stirrup leather until it's just below the saddle probably to avoid the metal stirrup swinging into the horses belly. If future sets of riderless horses were modelled like that it wouldn't be a problem for a two part mould.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

Your pic appears to reveal that you cut away the original stirrup leather of the left stirrup and made a new one but used a mounted figure with stirrups on already? So, possibly, you slightly converted the left stirrup but did not really make a new stirrup from scratch, or did you? Anyway, as you said, it certainly was a fiddly procedure (I did it myself, occasionally). And while the figure you converted was not destined to show a riderless horse, the horses of the Strelets dismounted dragoons set clearly are - or should have been. So, stirrups would have been essential. As for the positioning of the stirrups just below the saddle - that's where the stirrups are with the metal figures I referred to. It would have been possible for Strelets to do the same thing. But if you're not a skilled or careful enough sculptor to do such things ... (same goes for those short-barreled muskets - usually, sculptors of both metal and plastic figures get such things right...)

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

"I'm not a horsey type myself but I'm sure that when dismounting I've seen them sliding the stirrup up the stirrup leather until it's just below the saddle probably to avoid the metal stirrup swinging into the horses belly. If future sets of riderless horses were modelled like that it wouldn't be a problem for a two part mould."

Hi Graeme.
You are quite right about seeing us equestrians "running up" the stirrups right up the leather, for storage when dismounting plus as you say to stop them hitting into the horse when walking back into yard/stable etc. We hold them up the leather straps by taking the leather and folding through the stirrup to help keep it neat and secure.

content://0@com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/1614408288686711433788.jpg

Thats a brilliant "Scotland Forever" you've done there too!

On the subject of details missing etc, yes I can sympathise to an extent, or when you look forward to a set only to see it released as something unfit for purpose (like Peninsular Dragoons...😠)

However i also get that Strelets right now, are churning out sets at such a rate that little mistakes will happen at times. Ok so some designs of sets could of been done better, like putting in a fair representation of French Infantry rather than just flank, but then also missing off the epaulettes on the greatcoats.
Fact is what do people want? More and more sets, produced fast as possible, or a fall off in production so that extra research and development can happen?

Yes some people will be happy with whatever they get, some will want a product that is so detailed that theres inscriptions on the buttons. Fact is, you pays your money and makes your choice.

No one forces anyone to buy a set. I myself have not purchased the Nap French line infantry sets so far, as i havent been much of a fan. I also havent gone out of my way to buy many of the "standing at/order arms" etc sets. Do i think we needed a box for each "in reserve" type pose? No. Just as I wouldnt expect a set each of "British kneeling reloading, British standing reloading" etc. Id imagine they would get put together into a firing/firing line type set.

But i simply make my point that its not for me, why that is, and move on. If Strelets take such feedback into consideration, then thats great. If not well then they wouldnt be the 1st would they?

As I say, if I like it, I buy it, possibly many boxes. If not money stays in my bank account.
I understand the frustration definately, but no need go on any personal attacks.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish

Not our era but subject-related. Nice photo

http://www.mainecav.org/00s/unison09/unison09_horse_holders_3.jpg


Some of my own efforts regarding stirrups (sorry for the lousy quality of the pics, they were not meant to be published)









Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Great pictures!

Some great stuff here, Handlewithcare! I take this to be a scene from the Thirty Years War.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Well said Roger, some wise words here. And thanks for the advice on running up stirrups!

Here's one I did earlier (well, 10 minutes ago actually)



I have made this 'stirrup' from a bent small staple...it is what used to be called a number 10 size, and indeed may still be. It is the size that you sometimes get in those tiny novelty staplers that fall out of Christmas Crackers..

The process: Take one staple: it may already have been pressed out or peeled off the end of the line

Trim one end so that it is still long enough to provide one upper bar of the stirrup; then bend the mid section of the staple so that it forms the 'foot'. Using fine round nosed pliers (or indeed fine tweezers) bend to shape; roughly an open triangle. The picture shows roughly what the process is.

Open up the other end of the staple. Trim if required. This then forms the spur that can be inserted into a small hole drilled in the side of the horse.

Dimensions of the stirrup can be modified according to what looks right of course. And obviously because this is metal wire, it can be twisted easily to whatever you want...so, flat against the horse or sticking out.

The spur itself can be left as is, or embellished a little to make it look super realistic.

This is a cheap and cheerful way to make robust stirrups for French dismounted dragoons; it takes about 30 minutes to make a dozen pairs once you get going, I'd reckon.:slightly_smiling_face:

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Impressed with that, and something I would not of thought of, so a 10/10 from me. My thought on the reins are if Strelets are going to make more dragoons for the era then a set of horses specifically for the dismounted guys should be made, even if they have no reins at all,it`s an easier fix than cutting away etc.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Thanks for the praise guys! Yes, 1630s or so. Can't tell more about the project at the moment. As for the stirrups, most were actually cut away from that Italeri AWI British Light Cavalry horse I mentioned above. Well, just one figure is left, so I will have to default to other means, I guess, such as Minuteman's method using staples which really looks worth a try. Thanks for that, Minuteman!

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

I really like that little idea of using staples like that. Will have to remember that one!
Thanks Minuteman.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

The staple idea looks great and is very fitting for these riderless horses, well done.


Handlewithcare
Your pic appears to reveal that you cut away the original stirrup leather of the left stirrup and made a new one but used a mounted figure with stirrups on already? So, possibly, you slightly converted the left stirrup but did not really make a new stirrup from scratch, or did you?
My stirrup and strap were formed from a single piece of cotton soaked in glue; I found that this was easier than connecting a strap to an existing stirrup. Plus the stirrup moulded on the figure was not going to meet my purpose. The one piece construction was more obvious to look at but fitting both figures to a single base caused things to shift a bit.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Great painting on those figures by the way, and the buildings look fabulous.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems everyone is missing the obvious where stirrups are concerned. For sake of the sculpts - and possible ease of mounting each figure the stirrups are sculpted ON THE RIDER! This means when the figures are mounted there are stirrups on the horses. To sculpt the stirrups on the horses would be redundant. The only problem comes in dismounted poses - which would require new horses. Think about the howling if Strelets or any other company sculpted horses with stirrups and the riders with stirrups.

What if the companies did what some old companies used to do like Marx and put stirrups one could slide the figures' feet in? Of course, these were in a larger scale (1/32) - could you imagine the nightmare of trying to fit 1/72 scale guys in such stirrups?

So the PERFECT solution (as mentioned above) would be an entirely new set of horses which would only be useful for one purpose - standing being held in a dismounted set. Perhaps they could be sold separately to be used in other scenarios? But would that be cost effective?

I believe Strelets and other companies have made a valid compromise give us figures we want while keeping it economical on both sides of the fence (Seller and Buyer). Let's not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good here, I think. If the lack of stirrups on dismounted saddles bothers you that much, there are some superb examples of fixes. As an old Field Artilleryman (the required precision of which art requires - attention to detail bordering on OCD - think of throwing large explosive projectiles miles at unseen targets over the heads of friendly folks) at this scale I can live with the compromise.

Great job on this set. IMHO.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Hi Wayne, that point was not missed just discussed in previous threads. I did wonder if the horses shown were from the mounted dragoon set hence the missing stirrups.

It appears that this is a seperate set of dismounted dragoons rather than just some dismounted figures in the mounted set; and the set includes a horse holder pose. Handlewithcare's point is that a set with horse holders needs unridden horses, and those horses need stirrups.

http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2833323740&frmid=6&msgid=1080511&cmd=show

http://pub33.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=2833323740&frmid=6&msgid=1080740&cmd=show

I agree with you about not letting the perfect spoil the good, to be honest I don't think the missing stirrups would bother me much; but we all have different criteria for what we can and can't tolerate in a set and I can understand how such a detail might be a deal breaker for some. I'm sure there are people here who don't want to hear about my pet beef again. :relaxed:

P.S. Roger. Thanks for the confirmation regarding the stirrups, and I'm glad you like the stirrup riding Gordon; that was fun to do.

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

Just one more remark. The sculptor was really kind of thoughtless - or careless - when sculpting these figures. That's not a personal insult, it's just a fact. Many excuses have been brought forward for the missing stirrups, and regardless of the very much appreciated ideas about how we, the customers, should be able to remedy that noticeable flaw ourselves, this should not have happened. When you look at that second conspicuous mistake committed by the sculptor concerning the wrongly placed reins, his negligence becomes strikingly evident. How can you sculpt a horse holder holding the end of three reins in his hand but then deliver horses all of which have their reins over the shoulder? I do not assume that the men and horses were sculpted by different people but then they should have co-ordinated their work and created coherent poses, shouldn't they? Something like the posture of the WWII Cossack horse holder made by Revell
(http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=421) would have been acceptable (BTW, Revell too proved unable to provide a horse with stirrups), but this? So, what was the sculptor thinking? Is it really inappropriate for us customers to expect the sculptors to do their job right and scrutinise the products they want us to buy?

Re: Masters for dismounted French Dragoons in skirmish: Idea to create simple stirrups

The reins would normally have been brought over the horses head, if to be held in hand for a prolonged period or indeed if handling more than one horse. Better definately if in charge of handling more than one horse and certainly safer.

However...
If its one horse he is holding only for a short while, he may simply be holding the reins a little below the horses chin, while the reins continue up towards the horses withers.
Even today when leading a horse out of the stable ready to be ridden, or back in after being ridden, often we just take the reins a little below the bit/chin and lead them.
You could hold 2 horses like this, one in each hand, however you would have be sure the horses were well behaived. Half a ton of horse isnt the easiest animal to control when they are anxious, panicked etc.

Getting the reins back over a horses head would perhaps take more time than the rider had maybe in a combat situation....also helps if the horse is cooperating and not throwing its head around if panicked etc.

The pose however is clearly just holding reins in his right hand, so yes, normally I would of thought the reins would be brought over the horses head on this occaision.
UNLESS.... he is holding them via leadropes, each horse with a rope clipped to the bit?

I suspect these horses are generic and are also for other sets, like the Nap Prussians.
I would carve the reins off and make something to symbolise the reins coming from the horses bit, to the guys hand. After all, if hes holding multiple horses then some difference in distance would happen in regards to length of ewch set of reins between him and each horse.

If the set really isnt selling itself, simply vote with your wallet and dont buy it. This I have done with many sets that have been released by various manufacturers. I doubt any changes will happen now with this set. All customers can hope for is that the criticism is taken on board and mistakes are learned from. Strelets has shown its development just by comparing its sculpting these days with say 5-6 years ago. They are vastly improved from those early sets. Probably the best sculpts in plastic currently I'd say (makes me even more hungry for more late war Nap sets!!!). And yet, yes there is still room for improvment.

I myself have bought some of the Prussian Uhlans and a box of the Hussars, but I have no intention of using the horses supplied. Poor creatures look like they have bodies belonging to a hippo!!! The troopers themselves were worth getting to represent the 6th Lutzows, static horses however i shall source from elsewhere. In fact if the furniture etc wasnt so different, id pinch the horses in this set!!