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Re: Late Romans are Early Byzantines? What do you think, Babylonian?

Thank you, gents.

I realise it would be fudging things a bit but from your comments, it wouldn't ofend my sensibilities.

I can, of course, add to the "army" with units specific to one or the other, depending upon how I'm going to use them.

....any ideas who produces figures for Avar, Bulgar, Ostrogothic horse archers?

donald

Re: Late Romans are Early Byzantines? What do you think, Babylonian?

Admittedly none of these are a strength of the hobby, but in terms of pure 1/72 scale sets I would say a mix of the following with a few paint strokes are the best available assets for Avars/Early Bulgars:

HAT8298 Huns- Particularly the lamellar armoured riders, whom I think are quite excellent Avars. The guys with the 'Mongolian' looking hoods make me more uncomfortable, but they are certainly all arguably valid.
ORI72028 Slavic Warriors (6-9th cc)- Good as light infantry auxiliaries for everyone, even the Byzantines.
ORI72030 Khazar Army (7-10th cc)
ORI72034 Cumans (Polovets) and Pechenegs
ORI72043 Byzantine Infantry (7-9 centuries)- Could be used to show the preference of some Avar/Early Bulgar chieftains for at least some Byzantine equipment.
STRM027 Russian Peasant Levy in winter dress- The ones with one handed weapons are also good as light 'Slavic' infantry auxiliaries. This is one of my highest rated sets, super versatile.

Some of the Cuman, Russian Peasant, and (to a lesser extent) Khazar poses are pushing the Avar/Early Bulgar envelope a little, but nothing that should upset anyone other than the most pure of purists. It is also worth remembering that cultural identity during this period was very flexible and depended far more on personal power rather than the state, so no 'Avar' warlord was going to turn down service from a loyal trusted veteran even if he preferred to wear what was technically a more 'Khazar' style coat.

Horse archers are one of the biggest weaknesses of the scale in general, so a mix of the HAT8188 Late Roman Light Cavalry and MIN72014 Roman Cavalry (IV-V Century) are the main realistic starting points for Ostrogothic horse archers. With some painting they should become serviceable. Persian influences were quite common in Byzantine cavalry especially in the 4th-7th Centuries, so I think some of the Parthian/Sassanian armoured cataphract horse archers can be pressed into Early Byzantine service, especially if they are painted and based with Imperial insignia.

Re: Late Romans are Early Byzantines? What do you think, Babylonian?

TheBabylonian109
Hellooo! Will try to be of help as much as possible and as mentioned would love input from others. A great source for this period is Maurice's Strategikon (trans. George Dennis 1984), which was likely written at some point from 575-628 AD but can be taken as a general indication of what was going on during the 6th Century AD. It suggests the following for cavalry...

"They should have hooded coats of [scale, chain, or lamellar] mail reaching to their ankles, which can be caught up by thongs and rings, along with carrying cases; helmets with small plumes on top; bows suited to the strength of each man... cavalry lances of the Avar type with leather thongs in the middle of the shaft and with pennons; swords; round neck pieces of the Avar type made with linen fringes outside and wool inside. Young foreigners unskilled with the bow should have lances and shields. It is not a bad idea for the bucellary troops to make use of iron gauntlets and small tassels hanging from the back straps and the breast straps of the horses, as well as small pennons hanging from their own shoulders over the coats of mail... Apart from the foreigners, all the younger Romans up to the age of forty must definitely be required to possess bow and quiver, whether they be expert archers or just average. They should possess two lances so as to have a spare at hand in case the first one misses. Unskilled men should use lighter bows. Given enough time, even those who do not know how to shoot will learn, for it is essential that they do so. The horses, especially those of the officers and the other special troops, in particular those in the front ranks of the battle line, should have protective pieces of iron armor about their heads and breast plates of iron or felt, or else breast and neck coverings such as the Avars use."

...and for the infantry...

"The infantry soldiers should wear either Gothic tunics coming down to their knees or short ones split up the sides. They should have Gothic shoes with thick soles, broad toes, plain stitching, and fastened with no more than two clasps; the soles should be studded with a few small nails for greater durability. Boots or greaves are not required, for they are unsuitable for marching and, if worn, slow one down. Their mantles should be simple, not like the Bulgarian cloaks. Their hair should be cut short, and it is better if it is not allowed to grow long" (Dennis 1984, 12, 138).

Long story short is in my opinion they can be fudged into an Early Byzantine army, but are not ideal. The lack of composite bow cavalry archers and suitable auxiliaries such as Avars, Bulgars, Ostrogoths, etc. would be the biggest problems in my view, although the lack of lamellar armour (as compared to scale and mail) would also be notable especially as the 6th century went along. But it highly depends on the specific campaign in question, as there was a pretty big series of visual changes from the Constantinian Roman of the early 300s to the tagma that existed by the 700s AD. Interested to see what Linear-A does, as they appear to be targeting Justinian's mid-6th Century AD army with a couple of their future sets.
Good source & summary but do i remember wrong - isn't the Strategikon mostly a reaction to avar threat & contact?

So, for really early byzantine army late romans sound to be okay - with very few specialists missing; But as You mentioned there are some sets to fill that, so it's just a personal exchange of ideas.

Depending on how much converting is okay for one & with sometimes just few/single figures usable:

Italeri Gothic Horsemen
Italeri Mongols
early Set of Zvezda Mongols
Strelets dismounted Mongols
Zvezda russian noble cavalry
both DA Steppe Warriors
Orion Rus mounted knights
Orion Kievan Rus
Italeri Chinese Cavalry
HäT Clibanarii
MiniArt roman cavalry
Caesar Saladin with Saracens
Italeri saracen warriors
Italeri arab warriors
Strelets arab cavalry & seljukes cavalry if you can get them

aren't that bad for early eastern & byzantine matters after changing some details.

But as said, Linear-A will help in near future.

The experts have spoken.

Again, thanks gents. Your knowledge is much appreciated (& I had a lot of fun looking at the suggested sets, planning & thinking).

donald

Re: Late Romans are Early Byzantines? What do you think, Babylonian?

From what George Dennis says it is believed the Strategikon is more of a compilation of thought more than anything else. Avars play a decent part, but there are sections which deal with other cultures and the suggested reforming of the Byzantine armed forces in general. I would agree and suggest it is particularly valid starting in the 7th Century AD, while its 6th Century application is a little more hypothetical but probable on at least some level (after all, they did not 100% reinvent the wheel during Maurice's reign).

I think perhaps a bigger hurdle in translating the Late Romans to the Byzantines is most 4th-5th Century Late Roman sets (especially their foreign auxiliaries) tend to be at least a little Western Empire (i.e. culturally Latin based) biased, while of course the Byzantines were primarily concentrated on the Eastern (i.e. culturally Greek based) side. It is not an insurmountable difference by any means, but does change the insignia and the dress to some extent.

Happy to help! I learned many years ago that in today's world individual intelligence is highly overrated, while group intelligence is underrated. So if I can provide any information that helps out I am more than willing to do so, although I am better at pure ancients then Classics or Medievals (that said I am looking into Frederick Barbarossa right now, interesting army he has... a very Strelets themed one as well). :sunglasses: