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Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

In terms of the hobbies future based on youngsters, could it also be a dislike of the subject of history that alienates them from the hobby, unless as mentioned its sci-fi/fantasy/anime etc?
Or maybe its the way its taught now? Has the subject become boring and unfashionable, or maybe even seen as not overly politically correct, what with changing values,opinions and beliefs?

In which case the problem could be far deeper than just scales, price, quantity in a box etc.

I enjoyed history at school and thus also in my spare time.
When as a little kid on holiday, i absolutely had to visit any castles or history museums in the area! Then again i still do!!! Think my mum and dad have loads of photos of me as a little kid in the 80s stood by some form of cannon or WW2 aircraft!!!😂

That early enjoyment transferred into looking into history more in my spare time, and thus when i also enjoy being creative, this hobby combines the two so was perfect for me.
I dont think kids are any less creative, although computers etc have taken their toll, so as i say maybe its the historical side they dont like?

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

Could be a lack of interest in history, certainly was a declining subject at the college where I taught it. "It's too hard" was the common cry. I also think we have a marketing problem. Whenever I mentioned wargaming to my students they would immediately say "What? Like Warhammer?" Unfortunately, GW do a very good job of installing their brand and this often doesn't translate into knowledge of the wider hobby. Even when someone does develop an interest and look online or go to a show the majority of what they encounter is not our scale, even if it is, it is metal stuff (apologies to PSC who are doing a sterling job). Very few 1/72nd plastic figure sellers seem to go to shows (Andy Harfield is sorely missed, I am sure many British collectors will remember his company). Somehow we need to heighten the public profile and this is why I am interested in who is buying Alliance sets.

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

I think part of the problem is marketing. In the good old days, the manufacturers (Airfix for one) really managed to penetrate high street shops (as well as your local, now almost extinct hobby shop) - I remember picking up soldiers at Woolworths, and Atlantic figures at a convenience store.

28mm figure companies market themselves more to the gaming community (though painters like me love to collect and paint them only). Eagle Games have miniatures in 1/72 scale. Zvezda 1/72 is being reinvented into their own Art of Tactic wargames - those mini figure packs must be selling otherwise they wouldn't make them. But I have only bought 1 or 2 over the years. Linear-A's mini sets (even ancient era - not the most popular) must be selling, otherwise they wouldn't be making them. I haven't bought any yet. Obviously my preferred format/price model is the typical 48-per pack.

In my opinion 28mm figures have the lion's share of the miniature market through good marketing, great looking figures (from historical to fantasy to sci-fi), ability to kit-bash and multipose, and slightly larger surface to paint with less eye strain! For certain product lines, some people like those over-size heads for this reason, facial expressions, and view on the gaming battlefield. There is a huge interest in this scale by people on various Reddit & YouTube miniature communities. Even hugely popular Star Wars have penetrated the 28mm miniatures market!

Old childhood favourites of mine - Daleks, Cybermen, Judge Dredd are now available in 28-30mm scale (a dream come true). I recently bought several of these sets and look forward to spend Christmas and the New Year painting them up!

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

Looking at the likes of Warlord Games and Games Workshop, what seems to be a common factor is the convenience these sellers offer of having a 'package' of things - figures, rules, scenario books, paints, know-how - all in one place, and with a big presence on-line and also at wargames fairs and modelling conventions. This makes it relatively easy to build units/armies since a lot of the 'work' has already been done by the seller...noting of course that the buyer then has to assemble, base and paint the figures! What a company like Warlord offer is a world away from the 'olden days' when you might have convert various (Airfix) figures to 'make' the army you wanted, paint them with awkward and messy oil-based enamels, and then write your own wargames rules as well!

The Warlord Games business model is a good and compelling one, and I wish that company all the luck in the world with that. By comparison, no such 'ready-made' formula exists for 1/72 plastics, although if you consider a company like PSC, they do have an extensive website and make it relatively 'easy' to see, products which all relate to one thing: for example, building a late WW2 US army; figures, heavy weapons, armour and other vehicles. PSC are branching into new areas away from the WW2 market that they started with; I bet that, were they to start a range of 1/72 Napoleonics for instance, they would sell like proverbial hot cakes.

Ironically, lots of specialist sets is good for us oldies who have the time and appetite to commit to obscure periods and troublesome conversions! But not so for younger people who have less time and have grown up in a 'just-in-time-like-right-now' world.

I too remember Andy Harfield and his splendid trade stand at various wargames fairs; we may not see his like again, despite the best efforts of Rupert at Drum and Flag and a few others. It is unlikely and probably impracticable that the likes of HaT Industrie, Italeri or Strelets might have a travelling show and trade stand at European wargames shows; if they did, then that in itself might well boost the 1/72 market a lot.

Maybe we should simply be grateful for what we have now, enjoy the hobby, and accept that the future will be what it will be.

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

As one of the relative youngsters on here, I can confirm the supposition that the way history is taught in schools right now in at least the US/UK/Germany is driving a percentage of my peers away from the topic. I have been told by 14-15 different people this year alone that they did not like history in school because it was "boring" and they just did not understand why it was perceived as interesting. I cannot prove this particular aspect 100%, but I do believe that fantasy stuff like Lord of the Rings/Warhammer/etc. (which is MASSIVELY popular with my group overall) is perceived as more fun than traditional history, so many are going there for PC games or miniatures instead.

In many schools these days there is a huge focus on memorization of dates and timelines which takes away from the core concept of history studies. One of my USA teachers in undergraduate refused to talk about any of the events related to the AWI or ACW, but instead spent the whole semester forcing us to memorize every US government act that was passed in relation to the reconstruction that happened after 1865.

As you guys know, the problem with this is teachers like her miss the essential 'story' aspect of history: past peoples recorded and remembered this stuff because it was entertaining! So I have been trying to send them YouTube videos from Extra Credits, Kings & Generals, etc. that focus more on storytelling and less on memorization, and all of them have said "wow, that was actually quite fun." So I think as we become older and (hopefully) a little wiser some of the currently popular stories will fall out of favor while others will take their place, but after pondering the question for many years I do actually see a future for the 1/72 as a hobby. My peers are certainly not foreign to the idea of buying miniatures, playing fantasy card games, or having some sort of other hobby type that is not considered mainstream. One could even say it fits in perfectly with the 'hipster' phenomenon, although that is a concept I personally do not understand very well! :joy:

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

It is a very interesting discussion. Going straight to the point I like both the standard sets (+40) as they are important to build armies but I also appreciate the smaller sets as they give you some special pose or as the recent Linear A sets focus on some specific non mainstream aspect - so I buy them both and may be I'm willing to pay that extra Euro to get a small set with specific poses.

There are a few things that frustrate me re our beloved hobby:

- when a company announces a particular set and then does not do it for many years. The younger generations do not have a high level of patience. So what is promised should be delivered within reasonable timeframe.
- when there is a particular war/battle in which various nations or particular regiments participated and some of these nations / regiments are left out. E.g. Vietnam war: No Australians or South Koreans / Green Berets or Battle of Waterloo - no Hanover troops
- obvious gaps in our hobby: Franco Prussian war; Italian war of Independence; American Spanish war, Mexican revolutionary wars, Anglo Amercan war 1812. I know there exit some sets re some of these wars but too few to make any use of them.

On a positive note I thank partcularly Strelets, but also other companies, which have been consistent with their level of production, covering diverse wars and producing high quality soldiers.

I respectfully think that if companies address my above 3 negative points they will definitely continue to enjoy the support of the present hobbyists and who knows may be attract youngsters as well.

Strelets and others please keep up the good work.

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

To chip in on history, we were brain washed as kids , in the post WW2 era world, magazines , comics , Commando, Battle, Victor and others were in the main stories of that conflict, on tv we had a never ending steam of documentaries and drama`s based on it ,there was a stream of movies , and parental influence , my Mum and Dad telling stories of growing up ,hiding under the stairs hearing bombs explode etc. Not to mention every store toy shop or otherwise selling war toys. We are unique as a peer group in having been exposed to all the above and it still effects our choices today, younger people have not been exposed to it, and they are growing up in a politically correct world where war toys are not encouraged and not mainstream.

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

As a history major in college I can only say history is boring because they teach it in a boring way. History is very interesting because everyone likes to know what other people are doing or what other people did. What did you do last summer every kid asked his friends in September when school started. That's an oral history report.
What did your great grand father do in June of 1944? He visited Normandy and thousands of other people from all over the world were there participating in outdoor activities, including parachute jumping, swimming, shooting, and even some horseback riding. That sounds exciting, tell me more!
History teachers are mostly boring people who tell boring stories. But it does not have to be that way. What were the three main issues of the election of 1848? No one cares. It's boring.
And that is part of what is killing the hobby.
Hollywood is the other part, everything is fantasy, dystopian worlds, and comic book superheros. Those make poor historical wargames.
All you guys over 40 name your three favorite French Foreign Legion movies.
Name your three favorite WWII themed television shows.
Name your three favorite war movies, not FFL related.
You guys under thirty likely don't have that experience.
It's all anti-heroes, and nihilism, and corruption.
No one wants to wargame that.
My generation grew up with John Wayne.
After that it was Pee Wee Herman and twerking *****s.
Not good wargame material in those last two.
I am 65 years old and I am hoping to live long enough to see big meteor hit the earth in 2068, my purchases will probably decrease after that.
Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

I've been collecting for over 50 years now & I don't think the bigger sets will ever die. Zvezda has been tinkering with AOT for years now & they have their place as some wonderful specialty sets; mortars, MGs, some artillery, Medics, Observers, etc, but they will never replace the need for tons of infantry! Plus, there are still enough companies around that are doing some wonderful sets & others, once very low grade sets, are improving in quality. New companies are still never out of the question.

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

Hi all
Well, a few more thoughts, people of my generation I'm 67 now, were children of our time. I remember my mother talking (confusedly!) of wartime memories of the Blitz and much else. We had holidays climbing over old castles, which I didn't much care for, going to Biggin Hill Air Fair, which I did, growing up with war films and documentaries and reading books on military history, and comics - confession time - I still read some of the old shilling comics etc for light entertainment and amuse myself picking out the technical errors! I'm also one of the original Airfix Generation when we could buy them everywhere. I guess I haven't changed much!
As for history, well I don't want to get very political but I think Political correctness has much to answer for. I remember some years ago that new generations were living in the here and now and seeing history as irrelevant. I remember one of the first things about history I learned that was that those who forget the lessons of history repeat them which we see all around us today.
Again, left wing elements in the educational areas teach anti-violence, anti-Empire anti-slavery agendas etc, all of which puts off children and teenagers. It should be remembered that Empires and slavery were not exclusive to Great Britain, although watching the media many people could be forgiven that was the case! It is not widely known that Britain actually abolished slavery, but that doesn't suit certain political agendas! The point being that Empires and slavery have existed throughout history.
History has also been turned into Fantasy in many cases. Game of Thrones has "borrowed" many historical elements and just look at its success!
Stay safe folks!
Richard

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

Very interesting to see all of the stories, thanks for sharing! Hopefully it will provide some interesting reading for those of us awaiting the traditional Friday treat, thanks to Strelets for your time and efforts as always. :sunglasses:

I cannot claim to accurately speak for many of the youngsters (particularly the under 30s), because I belong to a small generation of kids that are heading into their late 30s/early 40s that are hybrids between the pre- and post-internet worlds. I like to refer to us as the "Windows 95" generation or "Guardians of the Internet Age," because we are the first group who were massively influenced by the internet from our upbringing. We are a hybrid of the old and new ways. My first ever set in plastic was the Marx 1/32 Japanese and Classic Toy Soldiers Chi-Ha tank to accompany them, which inspired my Dad to venture back into collecting some of the Airfix British Infantry & Afrika Korps recasts that were bouncing around starting in the late 1990s. I switched to the 1/72 scale a few years later. The very next year for Christmas I bought a PC game called Age of Empires, which entertained by talking about the ancient histories of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Yamato (Japan). As I child I would play a historical scenario as the Babylonians on the computer, then try to recreate a version of that same world with any available game board pieces or 1/72 figures in the area. There was never much available for the Babylonians of course, so I can honestly say quite a few pseudo-Napoleonic RISK pieces were surprised to end up in Nebuchadnezzar's armies!

My group has its favorite movies, although their support tends to be a little more niche than it used to be. Scenes from the Lord of the Rings trilogy have become an international method of communication at this point. Gettysburg was always the big ACW one. Many liked Brad Pitt's Troy, Clive Owen's King Arthur, Saving Private Ryan, and the 300 have followings as well despite their flaws. But personally I never found them as inspiring as an Age of Empires or AoE II storyline campaign, the latter of which is now done with fully voiced over introductions that tell they story via the voice of a person from the time. My current Medieval Strelets sets are dedicated to representing the likes of El Cid Campeador and Frederick Barbarossa, complete with King Henry betraying us repeatedly. Thinking about trying to assemble armies for Vlad III of Wallachia and his adversaries as well based off the Caesar/Lucky Toys sets.

So while I wait for my packet containing STRM141, I am also looking to buy the new Age of Empires II expansion that will add three new campaigns focused on Edward Longshanks, the Burgundians, and Medieval Sicilians. The methods of expression may have new forms, but our desire to be inspired by history has not. :sunglasses:

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

Yep at 37 im certainly in that category! Id say my generation certainly bridged a gap between the old and the new, thing is, we could embrace both. Thats whats changed.

My fav movies as a kid were ones that used come on tv on a rainy Sunday or bank holiday like Waterloo (which is probably the reason i got hooked on Napoleonics), 633 squadron, Battle of Britain & that golden oldie Dambusters! I was hooked on WW2 aircraft back then, still am really, and my ceiling was absolutely full of airfix 1/72 kits hanging off it!!

Then there was the 90s tv series sharpe which again probably influenced me into the Napoleonic period. Hornblower came much later but I also liked that.

Dont get me wrong, I like the hollywood blockbusters too, except 300 (not a fan of the style), but from an early age I could always see when it wasnt historically accurate, due to also enjoying reading history books.

That King Arthur film was an interesting take on the legend, and while there isnt much evidence, you could at least see where they were coming from and thus made some sense.

As for computer games, i quite liked the Combat flight simulator games for PC.
On playstation it was the usual WW2 stuff among other things but the D-Day based Brothers in Arms games "Road to Hill 30" and "Earned in Blood" were probably some of the best for me. No gung ho nonsense, you had think and plan the attack and stay safe while moving through the Normandy fields, bocage and urban areas.
No game can truely represent what it was like, but these were a bit more representative rather than a load of gung ho hollywood nonsense!

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

I've been in this hobby since 1965, when my parents bought me my first set of Airfix Union infantry in 1965. Collectively we've all come a long way since then.

I've noticed a growth in small groups (4-7) of plastic/resin figures that fill niche needs, such as those from Zvezda and Germania. An emerging production method that will likely increase the volume of these small units is 3D printing. A search of Shapeways.com will reflect a growing number of 1/72 scale armor and artillery pieces not previously available in this scale, along with sets of WW2 to modern soldiers and navy crews. While the figure sets, very specialized, are reasonable in price, the armor units and artillery pieces can be expensive. In time, this may change depending on advances in 3D production technology.

This trend takes away from the larger (40-52) sets that have sustained this hobby for many years. IMHO, these sets are still needed. Strelet's production (and to a more limited extent HaT) have had a beneficial impact on our plastic 'armies'. I suspect that the price of casting materials (soft/hard plastic, resin) will also determine future productions. That said, all of these approaches are needed for our hobby, but I suspect that the future will be more grounded in smaller "Art of Tactic" sized sets. But seriously, Zvezda...2 Soviet cavalrymen for the same price as an artillery piece with 2-3 crew??? Revell's Soviet Cossacks, along with Strelet's various Russian/RKKA cavalry sets are a far better buy!

Just my 2 cents...

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

"Great poses - stick one in a firing line and it comes to life. But how many guys like that do you need?"

Exactly! That has been the traditional bugbear of the big box plastic figure sets: case in point being the superbly realized bare headed figure in the new Boer War Highlanders set. This little guy us a work of art and worth the price of admission on his own, but I bought two boxes to complete my highland brigade, and there is just no way I am going to field eight hatless figures in the battle line! One man may lose his helmet, but an entire company?!?
So I set too this week and fashioned Glengarry caps for them out of green stuff putty, and made two companies of 1914 Highlanders - photos on the way as a contribution to Strelets as I type this....

As someone said already Airfix were notorious for a lack of heavy weapons (or the correct ones)in their sets, and this was where the small Art of Tactic sets filled a niche well: it's nice to b able to pick up an HQ group, engineer section or single gun without having 25-30 'useless' figures wielding SMG's (Thompson's Curse)or throwing grenades left over!

Re: Pondering the 1/72 Scale Future...

I completely agree that companies (especially non-Strelets ones, as I feel they do a pretty nice job of this for the most part) need to be really careful about which poses they select, as simply scaling stuff from 28mm or 54mm does not always work properly. I referred to what you mentioned as "diorama" poses. They are great for one to two figures, but do I really need a whole box with 4-8 copies or more especially if I need multiples of the same box? It can quickly ruin entire sets.