Strelets Forum

Welcome to the Strelets Forum.
Please feel free to discuss any aspect of 1/72 scale plastic figures, not simply Strelets.
If you have any questions about our products then we will answer them here.

Strelets Forum
This Forum is Locked
Author
Comment
View Entire Thread
Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

One more small additional question, can anybody who owns Set ZVE8064 Zaporozhian Cossacks confirm whether the main standing firing pose has a matchlock or flintlock in his hands? It looks like a flintlock to me from the pictures, but I am going blind trying to confirm it for certain. :smile:

Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

I have the Zvezda Cossack set, and I would argue that the musket on the standing firing pose is a flintlock or the older snaplock or a snaphance, which looks basically the same, at least in 1/72!

Don't know the difference in function between a snaplock, snaphance and flintlock, but they have the same general look to them.

It could also be some kind of wheellock (the snaphance seems to be a later development of the wheellock...

It short, it resembles a matchlock the least :)

Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

Thank you! Yea it was confusing because on the pictures the pose seems to be painted multiple ways, so the multiple technological possibilities makes sense. I am going to count him as a flintlock for now, but good to know that especially since there are only three of them per set he could be pushed into an earlier era if needed. :sunglasses:

Seven Years War

I will comment on the SYW because I have a little knowledge on this period.

When you think SYW infantry, you think turnbacks. Additionally, the coats worn were a tighter fit than the Strelets' WSS. Straight away, there's obvious problems with the figures you want to use. They cannot be SYW Prussians or Austrians IMO.

But wait! The French infantry in the early part of SYW wore more old fashioned clothing that is not unlike the Strelets' WSS infantry uniform: quite voluminous & without turnbacks.......except the cuffs are way too big & they wear buckled shoes rather than plainer boots & gaiters. It's starting to sound impossible.

And finally, we come to hair. The hairstyles are different. The rather wild locks of WSS soldiers gives way to the queues & neat coiffure of the SYW.

Now, as always, what you decide to do is, ipso facto, right & be ****ed to anyone who nay says.

I must say I just wouldn't.

donald

Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

Hello, until the end of the 19th century, military uniforms followed civilian fashions, especially with regard to the cutting of the garment. What distinguishes a military uniform from a civilian dress is often the uniform color in a unit or type of unit, the hat with cockroach or the mitre or cap, the ribbons and lace and embroidery. The equipment, belt, cartouchières, giberne. From the middle of the 18th century, the jackets return.

:disappointed: But I think that for the sake of savings and traditions, even if fashion passes, some units or some countries continued to wear over-worn outfits. As was a regulation enacted on 31 December 1699, it was not necessarily applicable on 1 January 1700. When Napoleon reformed french uniforms in 1812, some units (in Spain notably) never applied the decree. There are even units that will dress as they can depending on the possibilities of the region where they are. Also the sources are very difficult to interpret and always with suspicion. Historians who claim that the uniforms were of such a cut and colour are likely to be wrong. Let's be overly careful. I have a modest advice: "Read, read, look at the period images, over and over again and stay very open-vigilant. There is no great certainty in terms of uniformology!" but I may be wrong, I think, perhaps, certainly. :pensive: :disappointed_relieved:

Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

I would say that the figures are quite time-limited, for reasons already given here and others I can think of, but many figures will suit other nations' forces in the 1700s. The French infantry would make good Spaniards, while the British can serve as Dutch and Danes, for instance. I think with bearskins for the grenadiers, you could probably also derive Austrians from these sets, but probably not Prussians.

The Great Northern War is not a subject I'm familiar with, but I believe the Swedish infantry wore turnbacks from an earlier date than most armies.

Once we get to the 1710s, changes are already in evidence, most notably the French and British infantry, and others, have started to adopt gaiters, so you will be lucky if you get to the end of the WoSS with some of these sets, let alone later conflicts.

Once coats start to be seen worn open, often with lapels, you can forget it. The British have this style seemingly by at least the 1742 clothing book, plus a distinctive scoop out of the cuff. Fall-down coat collars appear from around the mid-century, e.g. French 1757.

I have thought about some troops who retained closed plain coats. I have in mind some SYW American militia, some 1745 Lowland Jacobite volunteers, but, even then, there are tell-tale differences. The WoSS cuffs are very large and, when turned back, typically sit fairly far up the arm, with the shirt cuff or waistcoat sleeves, clearly showing. This effect reduces over time. As has been pointed out, the way hair was worn also changed.

Officers, who at this period often did not wear uniforms as such, would see their clothes date due to changing fashions, more rapidly than the rank and file.

That said, with gaiters (perhaps some trimming could achieve this), these figures could do good service for many nations for the 1720s and 1730s. After that I think their usefulness becomes more limited, though with gaiters you could probably get away with the French Fusiliers for some early SYW French infantry.

Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

TheBabylonian109
Hello! Since many of the participants in this forum have an excellent grasp of 18th Century AD military history sources, I had a question for you guys. How easy is it to transfer fusiliers (which, as I have learned lately, are NOT musketeers in French :joy: ) from one war to another in the 'Age of Reason' era? How versatile are these sets, or do most require significant conversions to shift from war to war? These are the conflicts I am most interested in:

Great Northern War, War of Spanish Succession, War of the Quadruple Alliance, British-Spanish War, War of the Polish Succession, War of Austrian Succession, Russo-Swedish War, Seven Years; War, American Revolutionary War

To give an example of my query, let us take Zvezda's #8049 Russian Infantry of Peter the Great. Naturally they are meant for the Great Northern War (Battle of Poltava 1709 AD more specifically), but are they valid for the War of Polish Succession or even the much later Seven Years' War without much converting, or are the uniform/technology differences easily perceived? Is it really obvious that Redbox's three British sets are meant for the Jacobite Rising of 1745 or can they easily be adapted for wider usages? Any information sources that talk about overall European uniform changes in the 18th Century AD would be very welcome, as so far I can only find stuff that talks about each individual war separately (e.g. Digby Smith's 2012 Armies of the Seven Years War, which is sitting right here on my desk).
There is no substitute for doing your own research, and there is masses of stuff out there, in books and on-line. Have a look at this site for a taster of the range of uniform styles:

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/sydnystir/18th-century-armies/

Some general pointers, which reflect the comments already made on this thread:

- Uniforms tend to be heavier and baggier early in the century, becoming tighter and more uniform as the century goes on. Uniforms become more utilitarian and simpler in response to battlefield realities in some conflicts, notably the AWI.
- Coat turnbacks for infantry and cavalry start to come in from the 1720s/30s (slightly earlier for some nations eg: Swedes)
- There is a fair amount of 'copying' of styles between nations: So, for instance, Hessians in the AWI are still wearing uniforms which are heavily influenced by the Prussian style of uniform in the SYW twenty years before

I'd suggest that there is scope to take sets that are available and transfer them between decades within the 18th century; but you need to be prepared to use some ingenuity, convert figures and to compromise.

As an example: Some of the Strelets French WoSS figures will work well as Russian GNW Guard and Line infantry. But they definitely will not work as Swedes (wrong style and look, no coat turnbacks). And if you are using the French fusiliers set for Russians, then you need to trim off the front cartridge pouch and equip the figures with a large cartridge pouch on the left hip (with shoulder belt to carry it). The new French Pikemen set is, ironically, more suitable for Russians than French in the C18th; but you need to trim and paint over the breastplate as Russian infantry did not wear body armour....

And so on...... Enjoy.

Re: 'Age of Reason' Set Transfers? (c.1701-1783 AD)

Thanks for the replies everyone! They are as informative and mind provoking as hoped. :slightly_smiling_face:

From the information gathered here it seems that stretching sets between factions in the same period is usually a better idea than between decades, as the aforementioned cuffs, hair styles, and tighter SYW/AWI uniforms do stick out to me more now that I know what to look for. The French being a little more traditional than the rest with their outfits makes sense to me as well in the wake of Louis XIV's posthumous reputation. Thanks for the info! :sunglasses:

Talking through my hat

TheBabylonian109
T as the aforementioned cuffs, hair styles, and tighter SYW/AWI uniforms do stick out to me more now that I know what to look for. The French being a little more traditional than the rest with their outfits makes sense to me as well in the wake of Louis XIV's posthumous reputation.



I should add that those observations only apply to the Line & Grenadiers Royeaux units.

The Etranger regiments were uniformed in a more modern style & the Grenadiers de France, different again.

There is one thing not mentioned: hat size.

I am not sure of this but I think tricornes tended to be larger in the earlier periods.

My Wodenfield (metal) French SYW infantry sport a range of hat sizes, as I *think* this was the reality.

I would be glad for someone more knowledgeable than me (ie nearly anyone!) to comment on this.

donald

Re: Talking through my hat

Well I for one think this deserves a reply! As the course of the thread shows I am clearly not an expert here, but according to PSR's reviews of the matchlock musketeers firing they suggest that the cocked hats had already become smaller and more well defined by 1705-1710. Given the inherent nature of production and widespread usage of the hats it would make sense to me that they would be provided in many different sizes and styles over the decades as that metal set of French did. Apparently the Americans under George Washington tried to standardize the size at the outset of the AWI, but naturally that was never achieved given their immense problems with supplying the troops with, well, anything.

Re: Talking through my hat

It's interesting to see how a 'universal' broad-brimmed hat in the 1600s became a similarly universal tricorne in the 1700s and then a bicorne at the end of the century. Tricornes are still with us and still in popular imagination eg: Pirates 'always' wear tricornes! You can buy your own or make your own, and there are plenty of companies out there who will sell you a cheap one or a more expensive one, according to taste and budget. It was ever thus.

It's fair to assume that a unit on campaign anywhere in Europe, North America, India etc during the 18th century would be wearing what might appear to be a variety of 'styles', even if the original hat issue to rank and file was a common (cheap) felt hat. So it's as fair to assume a somewhat battered and bruised looking set of hats for many 18th century armies as it is for later 'campaign' shakos in the Napoleonic period. Hats would be used on campaign as pillows, baskets, water containers etc and would be rained on, dried in the sun, soaked in the rain again, shot at, trampled etc etc. Certainly, it's fair to expect some armies to have had a better regard for their headgear than others, and officers would spend a lot more on their hats, furnish them with extra trimming etc than their ordinary soldiers could...but a felt hat out in the open for a few weeks is bound to suffer.

So...if you like your troops to have a 'campaign' look, then start with the poor old abused military tricorne. If you like a 'uniform' look then stick with that. But otherwise, almost any shape or size will do, so long as it is still vaguely triangular!

Re: Talking through my hat

Thank you, gentlemen.

Our friend James Fisher sent me this interesting link:

http://kabinettskriege.blogspot.com/2020/05/tricorne-hat-how-accurate-is-this-term.html

donald

Re: Talking through my hat

Hiya


If your a wargamer, as opposed to modeller, the Strelets range would be acceptable substitute for various armies and conflicts up to the 1740s when fashion shifted

As others have pointed out, there is plenty of free uniform plates and info on line which you can consult and draw your own conclusions

The figures will work for some conflicts and less so for others but sometimes a good paint job and/or some converting and your away

I picked up plenty of Zveda GNW Russian infantry as reckoned they would pass for others nations eg French.

There are 7 year war figures by Hat and 1745 British by Redbox if later 18th century is the interest.


The Strelets WSS are a lovely range and I happily recommend them to you




Re: Talking through my hat

Hello! This seems to be more directed at my original thread, so I will reply with this in mind. I am a little more on the wargaming side (basically a PC gamer at heart that is trying to translate that into plastic), but I also have a doctorate in ancient military history so some 'basic' (admittedly a subjective concept) accuracy is important. The timeline seems logical from what has been provided by yourself and others here, with there basically being four broad main eras of uniforms & equipment throughout the century (WoSS/GNR to 1740s, War of Austrian Succession/Uprising 1745, Seven Years'/AWI Wars, and the Revolutionary Wars to finish it off). It definitely seems like with the new Strelets line and Zvezda that the first of these eras is the strongest at the moment, although I have taken strong looks at the RedBox as well as HaT lines.

Thanks for the input and have a nice day! :sunglasses:

Re: Not nearly enough figure sets for the 18th Century

Hi Babylonian109,

Firstly, it's impressive to hear that you have a doctorate in ancient military history!

The 18th century is a fascinating period so far as 'western' warfare is concerned. Not only does it see a military revolution, moving from 'pike and musket' at the turn of the century through to the beginnings of the Napoleonic era, with nation states mobilising masses of troops by the end of the century; but it also sees the introduction of true light infantry and light cavalry as an established part of an army's order of battle, and major changes in battlefield tactics.

You can divide the century up in any number of ways. I prefer to look at it as 'early', 'mid' and 'late'. 'Early' is the WoSS and the decades immediately after, let's say through to 1740. 'Mid' is the period often associated with the reign of Frederick II ('the Great') of Prussia, and therefore the War of Austrian Succession and the Seven Years War (1741-63); 'End' is the rest of the century, taking in the AWI and the Revolutionary Wars of the 1790s.

It's fair to say that, for such a diverse and interesting period in military history, this is a century that has been very poorly served in 1/72 plastics. Until Strelets introduced their WoSS range there were hardly any figures for this 'early' period other than the Zvezda GNW figures and a handful of Strelets sets. Coverage of the 'mid' period is even worse, with only Revell producing a range of figures for the Seven Years War, with a few sets by HaT added to this. There are likewise precious few sets for the later century/revolutionary period.

Compare this with the Napoleonic era and be amazed! The Napoleonic Wars lasted 22 years and there are probably 20-30 x more sets for this period than the whole of the 18th century. There are more different sets of French Napoleonic line infantry than all the sets made in 1/72 plastic to date for the Seven Years War....

It's time for this to change. In particular, there is a lack of good figures for the 'mid' period. Various members of this Forum have been calling for the Seven Years War to be properly covered; so far it has not. Perhaps Strelets will do so soon? We live in hope.

Re: Not nearly enough figure sets for the 18th Century

Why thank you! It is nice to be appreciated. :sunglasses:

I am always a little taken aback when combining through the different eras how weak the 18th Century AD representation is, although do think there are a few logical reasons behind it. The Napoleonic Wars did feature an overwhelming amount of fascinating characters that reshaped European history so I can see why many companies go there first, especially since HaT is pretty much the only major USA producer anymore (and even he of course has always been a huge Anglophile with his topic choices). It is also a complicated era compared to say Normans v Saxons, as from a gaming perspective you really need at least six sets (two opposing factions with inf/art/at least one cav type) to make a decent matchup between two sides. That said, the Seven Years'/AWI had many great characters of its own so I hope something resembling or (ideally) surpassing Barzso's 1/32 resin line will appear for the era in the future. Honestly I just want high quality sets for any era between 2600 BC-1815 AD that look good as a formation rather than as a scattering of individual poses who do not function well together unless you buy 3+ of the same set. Strelets naturally does quite well with this, which in addition to their durability is why I like their figures most despite many figure suppliers in the UK and Germany tending to prefer other companies.

And please, for the love of all of the Gods that have ever existed, no more bizarrely inaccurate shield poses (looking especially at you Caesar, HaT, and Orion!). :joy: