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Re: French pikemen

James Fisher
Dear Mark,

I am thinking Russians for sure to compliment those few that you get in the Guard of Peter the Great set. The cuffs and coats will work well. Cuirasses are an easy in or out at the stroke of a brush (as is done with that hugely flexible and useful Reitars set which I am using for Swedes, Poles, Danes).

Perhaps Strelets are going to go backwards from the War of Spanish Succession? I know that Donald would prefer that they went forwards. Why not both directions Strelets, give us the "Strelets touch" of marvellous figures and an amazing rate of production?!

Cheers,

James
Hi James,

Yes, I think these new figures would work well for the GNW as Russians, and indeed perhaps as standard bearers (with a sash added as well as trimming/paintjob on the breastplate?) as well as pikemen.

And yes also to your idea of 'going back' from a central period. The year 1700 plus or minus 20 years each way sees a bit of a 'military revolution' in terms of tactics and weaponry. This makes it interesting for us as collectors/wargamers, and tricky for the likes of Strelets to model. But yes, 1680s and 90s, definitely a good period, especially if you are a 'fan' of French military dominance in Europe!

Re: French pikemen

No date or period on the box, so that should keep everyone happy, except those that don`t read what is written on the box. Nice figures and these will be great fun to paint and may tempt me, just for the joy of painting a few of them.

Re: French pikemen

A few isolated opinions on the topic:

Falkner 2014 Marlborough's War Machine, 1702-1711: "By the time William III had come to the throne in London, the ratio of pikemen to musketeers in his army had dropped to 1 in 5, and over the next few years they faded away almost entirely, the last pikes in English use reportedly going into store in June 1702, although some soldiers continued to regret their passing." Naturally this is for the English forces, but thought it was worth passing along.

Tincey 2004 Blenheim 1704: "By the beginning of 1704, the third year of the War of Spanish Succession, all infantrymen served as musketeers [in the British and French armies]." Osprey is always hit or miss in terms of accuracy, but Tincey implies via his sources that from 1701-1703 there were a few remaining pikemen. Lynn 1999's The Wars of Louis XIV 1667-1714 suggests that in the French army the ratio was down to 4.5 musketeers for one pointy boy by the preceding Nine Years War, and it may have been even lower than that for the WoSS.

You guys might also be interested in this discussion as well: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=189234 I am currently looking for the 1721 "Histoire de la milice francaise" book by Gabriel Daniel that apparently refers to an Ordinance from King Louis himself that ordered the removal of all pikes in the French army as of 1703, which would be primary source proof. This is not really in my area of expertise though (ancient/medieval/Seven Years' War/AWI), so my library is not very well calibrated toward it.

Re: French pikemen

Cannot find the original French book, but Parlby 1827 The British Indian Military Repository Vol. V (last place I would expect to see Louis XIV info!) pg. 88-89 speaks of the 1703 French Ordinance, which he states that "the final abolition of the pike received the sanction of the authority, in compliance with the strong representations of Marshal Vauban, and much against the wish of Monsieur D'Artagan… who was very clamorous for their preservation."

Re: French pikemen

Thanks for all the historical references by several Forumers in this debate. I am as certain as can be that front line (ie: regiments in the field) units in the War of the Spanish Succession in Western Europe (and almost certainly in Italy and Spain as well) did not use the pike. I am basing this simply on the lack of any battlefield reference in my reading of any account of pikes in use.

Accounts of Marlborough's army on the march to the Danube in the summer of 1704 and prior to Blenheim would surely have mentioned the encumbrance of pikes - but do not (because they were not part of the armoury). And so far as the French were concerned, a King as powerful as Louis XIV would be obeyed the moment he issued a directive. So if he said "no more pikes by 1703" that would be an order put into practice.

I completely agree that the master figures might look nice, be worth buying to paint up with their great uniforms and gleaming breastplates, be good for modest conversion to perfectly acceptable GNW Russians etc...but I'm afraid that my WoSS French army will have no pikemen !:relaxed:

Re: French pikemen

During the Spanish War of Succession, the army of Louis XIV, is the most powerful in Europe. The coalition formed against the Sun King will achieve important victories. These victories will undermine the French army and finances. I think a few pikemen will take their places in this French army. But this is not representative. The same goes for musketeers. At the end of the war, there will be some reformations of units of pikemen and musketeers, but this is not the bulk of the army. As far as the English army is concerned, I think that pikemen and musketeers disappeared from the armies long before that time. Some pikes are still relevant in poorer countries such as Sweden, Russia, etc. In any case, I did not find any mention of the units of pike, during the descriptions of battles of that time. And again without this kind of armour. I'd buy this box, but mainly to get the drum and the officers back.

I still think that there is an imbalance of representation between a backward, under-equipped French army and the representation of the normally equipped English army. Of the four boxes representing the French army, three represent obsolete weapons (pikes and muskets). I look forward to seeing the French cavalry.

I'm still admiring about the engraving even if the options of the subjects are questionable.

best regards

Hervé

Re: French pikemen

Zouave72


I still think that there is an imbalance of representation between a backward, under-equipped French army and the representation of the normally equipped English army. Of the four boxes representing the French army, three represent obsolete weapons (pikes and muskets). I look forward to seeing the French cavalry.

I'm still admiring about the engraving even if the options of the subjects are questionable.

best regards

Hervé
Yes, I agree with this, Herve. I think that Strelets do need to release two extra French infantry sets. One of these would be 'French Fusiliers on the march' (actually with all the figures in marching, not advancing poses) equipped with long fusils with bayonets fixed; these would be different poses from the two marching poses in the Fusiliers set already released. The other set would be a 'French Guard Infantry' set (preferably with the figures mainly in 'advancing' poses) to represent the many Gardes Francais and Gardes Suisses units which served valiantly in the WoSS.

As I have requested before, there is a very definite need for a set of French Line (Not Guard) cavalry for the WoSS as well.

Hopefully Strelets will provide these sets.

Re: French pikemen

Strelets determinedly doing its own thing again.

Beautiful figures, so I will buy a box, and, after carefully extracting the drummer for the sake of my WOSS French infantry, convert the remainder to Ankh-Morpork City Watchmen.

Re: French pikemen

I am thinking of buying a box just so I can have a scene where King Louis XIV angrily confronts D'Artagan and says "WHAT ARE THEY DOING HERE!?!??!" :smile:

Re: French pikemen

TheBabylonian109
I am thinking of buying a box just so I can have a scene where King Louis XIV angrily confronts D'Artagan and says "WHAT ARE THEY DOING HERE!?!??!" :smile:
It is a different saying, but it is also what I think. We can find in this or that text a quotation that describes the pikemen in action. Of course, but it is not representative of the time. I will buy, but only the drummer and the officers interest me.

I like when Louis XIV speaks to d'Artagnan, especially when he asks the truth about the necklace and jewels of the Queen in the year 1708 watching the action of musketeers and pikemen against fusillers.

Don't be cruel to me, it's a joke, a clumsy touch of humor, which doesn't have much place here, but still a just little . . . :wink:

Re: French pikemen

Zouave72
TheBabylonian109
I am thinking of buying a box just so I can have a scene where King Louis XIV angrily confronts D\'Artagan and says \"WHAT ARE THEY DOING HERE!?!??!\" :smile:
It is a different saying, but it is also what I think. We can find in this or that text a quotation that describes the pikemen in action. Of course, but it is not representative of the time. I will buy, but only the drummer and the officers interest me.

I like when Louis XIV speaks to d'Artagnan, especially when he asks the truth about the necklace and jewels of the Queen in the year 1708 watching the action of musketeers and pikemen against fusillers.

Don't be cruel to me, it's a joke, a clumsy touch of humor, which doesn't have much place here, but still a just little . . . :wink:
Sorry Zouave, but it wasn´t Louis XIV who was the king and husband of queen Anna.

The musketeers and d´Artagnan are figures under the reign of Louis XIII (1601-43).

Re: French pikemen

Désolé Sansovino, mais D'artagnan et ses trois camarades mousquetaires ne vécurent leurs aventures à l'époque de Louis XIII... qu'uniquement dans le roman d'Alexandre Dumas ! En réalité, le D'artagnan historique fit la quasi totalité de sa carrière sous Louis XIV et mourut le 25 juin 1673 au siège de Maastricht, pendant la guerre de Hollande.

Sorry Sansovino, but the true D'Artagnan (not Alexandre Dumas' character) spent all his career after Louis XIII's death and under the Sun King's reign. He died during the War of Holland, at the siege of Maastricht, on the 25th june 1673

Re: French pikemen

Georges de Beaulieu
Désolé Sansovino, mais D'artagnan et ses trois camarades mousquetaires ne vécurent leurs aventures à l'époque de Louis XIII... qu'uniquement dans le roman d'Alexandre Dumas ! En réalité, le D'artagnan historique fit la quasi totalité de sa carrière sous Louis XIV et mourut le 25 juin 1673 au siège de Maastricht, pendant la guerre de Hollande.

Sorry Sansovino, but the true D'Artagnan (not Alexandre Dumas' character) spent all his career after Louis XIII's death and under the Sun King's reign. He died during the War of Holland, at the siege of Maastricht, on the 25th june 1673
Sorry Georges, but the true d´Artagnan hadn´t surely nothing to do with the necklace of the queen?
The d`Artagnan which was mentioned with this story was certainly the Dumas figure, but thanks for your remark of the historical and not fictional d´Artagnan.

Re: French pikemen

Sansovino

Zouave72 probably speaks about this d'Artagnan ...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_de_Montesquiou_d%27Artagnan

... who in fact championed the preservation of pikemen while Vauban strongly argued in favour of abolishing them. As we all know, it was Vauban who bore the palm.

But, perhaps, Zouave wants to comment himself on what exactly he meant ...

:relaxed: