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Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

My main hobby interest is actually model railways, where the number of people who, quite virulently, fight for the right to be sold inaccurate product, is hard to believe.

The first thing I'll say is that, with few exceptions, you lot are a lot more measured and polite than the trainheads.

Unlike this hobby, where I am a mere consumer, I see both sides of this critical feedback issue in relation to railways. Indeed, it was as a result of some online feedback that I was invited to the 'inside' where I have been involved in research and review for a number of developing products. It's worth noting that these are major undertakings where a product takes 3-4 years to come to fruition and requires up-front investment of tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds a time, so I have some insight into complex and high-stakes hobby projects.

So, I completely understand the position Strelets is in. Critical feedback is a double-edged sword and you can be ****ed if you do show your designs and ****ed if you don't. It's also hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. And some emphatic and insistent criticism is either plain wrong, or, is at least in reality a debatable area where a manufacturer just has to take an intelligent view.

However, in my experience of the model railway industry, those manufacturers who are open to criticism tend to have happier outcomes than those who take the view they know best. There's always someone out there with more expertise or knowledge than you.

These musketeers I won't buy, not because of the apparently mistaken belief that they fit the WSS (I could have found a place in my heart for 1690s figures) but because I conclude that in all likelihood they are inaccurate in one key regard. My choice is whether to live with that or not. In this particular instance, I choose "not", but in other cases, I'll accept a fault for the sake of otherwise excellent figures.

And much of Strelets' recent output, not least the WSS infantry, has been exceptional. Strelets deserves much praise and gratitude for the numbers of sets it produces, the quality of the figures and the subjects it tackles. If I just popped up to moan, I can see how such contributions might be inappropriate. However, there is vastly more in Strelets' output to celebrate and praise than there is to criticise and I believe my posts have always reflected that. Besides, I've voted for Strelets time and again with my hard-won pounds. So, no, I'm not feeling any need to stay silent when something is looking suspect.

That said, there is nothing Strelets can now do about these Musketeers. Some people won't mind the apparent fault, others will accept Strelets' defence, which it's perfectly entitled to make. A few, like me, will decline, but the world turns, and I see no further point in banging on about them.

Today's crucial issue is the next set, where Strelets has the opportunity to identify any problems before it's too late by means of critical feedback. I hope it will be open to doing so. We don't want to be back here again.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you—vive la différence!

Edwardian, I enjoyed reading your long explanation of your own experience and observations of another group of hobbyists. I have had my two cents worth already, but I hope that you will all forgive me for chiming in again for, as well as being interesting, Edwardian’s input lead me to a key point; we are dealing with different perspectives that come from different aims/wants/needs.

All of the wargamers whom I know and those that I follow via blogs (some 50-odd) take a pragmatic approach to accuracy. This may range from large, knowing ‘errors’ such as fielding French infantry in shakos at Austerlitz (because none or too few bicorned versions are available**) to smaller ones such as fielding the 3e hussars to represent the 9e hussars ‘cause a representation of the ninth was not available. Of course, undoubtedly in the latter case the hussars will be kitted out in a shako of the mid-Napoleonic period, irrespective of the time in which the particular game is set.

You see, for wargamers it is about the overall effect and using units that have been painted, especially when large numbers of figures are used/required for the period and set of rules. This is the same across scale be it 2 mm, 6 mm, 10 mm, 15 mm, 20 mm/1/72, 25/28 mm or 54 mm. Of course, people paint figures and units as accurately as possible, including the detail that their eye/hand, or perhaps wallet, can achieve. That will not prevent beautifully and accurately painted 1er chevau-légers lanciers polonais de la garde being used at Somosierra (pre-lance, that is), to give but one possible case. It is a pragmatic approach.

In our group, we like to field as many Airfix figures as possible, representing whatever they have been painted as (sometimes acting ‘heavily in disguise’ if we don’t have the historical unit painted). That is because we like the figures, the nostalgia that they bring and when we want to do a game involving 500–2 000 figures a side we are not going to buy and paint the precise figures and unit types. We are not concerned if a figure representing a fusilier has two belts. You cannot tell unless you get really close to the figures. It is, as I have said, about the overall look and using the figures that people have invested time and effort in painting. For this use and this philosophy, absolute accuracy is lovely to have, but not a necessity in the least.

Clearly this is not the case for all—naturally and quite understandably.

It is important for people to air their own preferences, ideas and even to point out if the number of buttons or wheel-spokes is not correct. We all learn from this and can decide whether it is a ‘deal breaker’ for the particular figures involved. It is equally important for others to respect those points and to discuss the differences in a forthright but respectful manner. We don’t need the ‘railway enthusiast’s approach’ here as described by Edwardian. I for one will find other things to do if it comes to such discourse over matters so small!

What does this mean for Strelets?

Anyone who has been or is in business or has an understanding of what that entails will realise that cashflow is king. Others above have noted, but to reiterate, we have heard directly and clearly from Strelets what their rationale is. It is pleasing to receive such clarity and honesty from our friends and a key provider of delight in our chosen hobby. Strelets’ formidable output of excellent figures is a key reason why this forum is so active and worth visiting everyday (and twice on Sundays).

Moving sets quickly to market means that the pragmatists amongst us are more often going to be more satisfied than those striving for greater perfection. This does not prevent any of us from making suggestions, observations or stating preferences (not that anyone seems to need encouragement on this count, haha!)


[**It seems that to field French in greatcoats in 1805 is highly inaccurate as the only ones who had them were those who had ‘liberated’ them from the Austrians, but that won’t prevent me from doing so since there are some d@mnded nice French in bicornes wearing greatcoats available in 1/72].

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

I agree with you whole-heartedly.
I vote with my wallet and have shelves full of Strelets figures. Including all of their WWI sets, many Napoleonics: from their very first 'French Army Camp (8 boxes of them) to the wonderful Highlanders. I have most of their Colonial sets and all of their 'War of Spanish Succession'.

I think your posting is aimed at those of us who respond to Strelets invitation to comment and foreword critiques on the products and future proposed products: I remember insisting that their suggestion of the WSS series would be well received. Strelets asked and we gave our views. I am sure that Strelets are glad that they listened and took the plunge.

HaT Industries have a reputation for listening to their customers. and have revised many of their products, due to critiques, before final production.

The thread I started below was to provoke comment and perhaps encourage Strelets to perhaps show drawings or early sculpts to encourage even more interaction and a feeling of involvement with the creation of figures which we are ultimately going to buy.
I produce models, myself, and consult potential buyers at every stage. www.chessnuts.co

The excellent interaction by Strelets, below 'Let those who have eyes to see', is exactly what I was hoping to encourage.

So, What's good about Strelets?
1. They produce great figures.
2. They constantly improve.
3. They cover many eras
4. They complete ranges; with Infantry, Cavalry, Command, Artillery and now even civilians.
5. They listen to us and take our views into consideration in the manner that they are intended.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

I agree completely. The "rivet counters" are getting a little out of control.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

No, what's getting out of control is the product research. We just want to see it back on track.

But, fight for the right to buy inaccurate models, if that's your thing.

I'm beginning to understand why Master Kunz sounds so frustrated!

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

Full circle , we were once,delighted with what ever Airfix gave us, in those far off days of childhood, so we are once again. But the hobby or more precisely other manufacturers have not failed because of button counting customers, although that may have a small part to play, it has been all but killed by saturation , low retail price points and by an ageing customer base.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

I still don't get how strelets can get it wrong when there is so much information available online at the click of a mouse. I love the new sculpting standards, I love the regularity with which Strelets release new products, I love the way Strelets gives us a Friday glimpse in to the future, I just wish they would do their research to the point where there are no duff figures. And I'm afraid a set of Brunswick life Infantry with three flags, when they carried none, is just silly. Surely the purpose of this forum is not simply to blow smoke up strelets' arse, but to provide constructive criticism where appropriate. A blanket accusation of being oafish, Ill-mannered and badly bred seems to be mirroring the dismissive reaction to criticism on the "other" producer's forum.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

Brian
Surely the purpose of this forum is not simply to blow smoke up strelets' arse, but to provide constructive criticism where appropriate. A blanket accusation of being oafish, Ill-mannered and badly bred seems to be mirroring the dismissive reaction to criticism on the "other" producer's forum.
You need to read what I wrote a little more carefully, Brian.

My point was clearly not about being critical but about being courteous when you point out what you believe are mistakes to Strelets. And I'm not sure you understand what "blanket" means in this context. My criticism was decidedly pointed rather than a general, or "blanket", condemnation.

...it's OK, though. I forgive you for your egregious errors.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

Cappy
With a dearth of 1/72 scale plastic figure manufacturers I am grateful for Strelets.
The new sculpts and eras covered are fantastic.
Sure mistakes are bound to be made. It happens and it's ok to express an opinion but please lets not overdo it.
Strelets works very hard to come up with sets to try and meet various needs and wants.
I just want to say I appreciate their efforts! Cappy
I am just grateful that we have an imaginative company in Strelet.I may not be interested in all the various eras but I take my hat off for the variety like the colonial and FFL etc. It would be much easier (probably more profitable) for Strelet to churn out third reich stuff as the majority of the plastic model and manufactures do. Thank heavens for Boer War, Napoleonic, ACW sets than more of those dreadful fantasy jets, flying saucers and tanks which companies produce under the banner 1946 (have they never heard of the atomic bomb?)

How many other companies have produced artillery sets with full crew? As for accuracy yes there are mistakes but you only have to look at sites like 'hyperscale' to realise that most/all models are inaccurate and there are vast number of companies producing expensive replacement parts!

..... and as for HaT- they may sometimes act on comments but I will probably be long gone before they get around producing the BEF set!

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

RCD
Cappy
With a dearth of 1/72 scale plastic figure manufacturers I am grateful for Strelets.
The new sculpts and eras covered are fantastic.
Sure mistakes are bound to be made. It happens and it\'s ok to express an opinion but please lets not overdo it.
Strelets works very hard to come up with sets to try and meet various needs and wants.
I just want to say I appreciate their efforts! Cappy
I am just grateful that we have an imaginative company in Strelet.I may not be interested in all the various eras but I take my hat off for the variety like the colonial and FFL etc. It would be much easier (probably more profitable) for Strelet to churn out third reich stuff as the majority of the plastic model and manufactures do. Thank heavens for Boer War, Napoleonic, ACW sets than more of those dreadful fantasy jets, flying saucers and tanks which companies produce under the banner 1946 (have they never heard of the atomic bomb?)

How many other companies have produced artillery sets with full crew? As for accuracy yes there are mistakes but you only have to look at sites like 'hyperscale' to realise that most/all models are inaccurate and there are vast number of companies producing expensive replacement parts!

..... and as for HaT- they may sometimes act on comments but I will probably be long gone before they get around producing the BEF set!
Preach it, Brother RCD!

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

There are quite simply people who do care about accuracy and those that don't.
I personally wont buy this set.
Not because I don't appreciate Strelets as a 1/72 plastic manufacturer, not because of the high output of the sets released, not because of the themes and periods they cover,...etc.
I wont be buying this set, because I do care about accuracy.
Why Strelets is struggling with research in this day and age, when there is plenty of material available at the hands reach I do not know.
In the end, it's their decision if they want to reach out and sell their products to both groups.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

Parrots always do. You (ie humans) always learn to never put a finger between yourself and the parrot. Good tip as the alternative really hurts.

Model railways now have things called "freelance" models and I call them toys.

In model figures there is a snobbery about accuracy which can be described in accuracy percentages.

19th c Colonial -80%
WW2-75%
Napoleonic-210%
18th c -90%
Carthaginians-10%
Zombies - 2%
WW1-74%

The safest periods are when both armies are reduced to rags or wearing local clothes with rags. The English Civil War is good because they used to dress just like the Sealed Knot blokes (no messing now) but off piste they looked like Worzel Gummidge.

Accuracy is the perfection that only Praxiteles could achieve and I think Freud said something about annual retentiveness for those mortals who seek it. Close enough is never good enough but panache and male bovine ordure work wonders to convince sceptics. "Aiming to be generic" or "capturing the essence" are phrases that spring to mind.

BTW hasn't the Austrian chap got a Marks and Spencer shirt on. I bet they actually wore them in reality - make me feel small.

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

And now back to the essentials of life.





:relieved:

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

"BTW hasn't the Austrian chap got a Marks and Spencer shirt on. I bet they actually wore them in reality - make me feel small."

Well done David, you definitely passed the WW1-74% accuracy percentage (although I'm not entirely sure, if that being a Marks and Spencer brand shirt is accurate :wink:). But for being a real WW1-100% accuracy snob, you'll have to look even closer. :laughing:

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

It always makes me laugh when I watch discussions about standardisation in armies and listen to "button-counters". I took a picture of a nine-man infantry section of the Black Watch battlegroup in Iraq in 2003 - in an age when standardisation might be expected because of the relative ease and uniformity of supply sources. No two of them are dressed exactly the same. I'd wager it was even worse during the 18th and 19th centuries. Armies tend to wear what's available in the field. I've 30 years' experience of wars and I've never seen troops turned out in a war zone in parade-ground order. They adapt. They have older kit and newer items in a mix which suits them. Or because it's all there is. That's reality. It was ever thus. :slightly_smiling_face:

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

"All men have their frailties; and whoever looks for a 1/72 scale friend without imperfections, will never find what he seeks."

Cyrus the Great
















(Okay, maybe I edited the quote a little)

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

A wise fellow hobbyist whom I haven't heard from in some years (at least in the forums I tend to inhabit) used to use a 3-foot rule in 1/72 scale figures - if it wasn't visible or actually noticeable from 3-feet in full scale it wasn't important enough to bother with.

I like a certain degree of accuracy in my figures. At the same time, though, as with Alan Buckingham, I grew up in the era where we "made do." The first actual "Napoleonics" I ever saw were from the Hong Kong company "Giant" - They made some nice looking figures in 1/72 scale, but they were basically French uniforms in blue for French, red for British. But we played with them nonetheless. When I discovered Airfix I was in heaven.

So we live in a great time to be a toy soldier collector.

I have discovered that most of the errors in uniform can be corrected with a bit of paint or even an x-acto knife slice here or there. If there's an extra strap? Paint over it. But that's me. Weapons length can be a different matter, but still can be rectified - or ignored if one chooses. Particularly since it seems too late to rectify it for this set.

It appears there is a difference of opinion as to whether these weapons were used during the time frame these figures are supposed to cover. From the arguments pro and con it seems to me it is quite possible these weapons might have been in issue for at least some of the period. Having served in the military I can understand how it takes time for new equipment to "filter down" to the line units. Just because this item was adopted in such and such year doesn't mean every unit was issued the uniform or equipment immediately. Even in today's military (and I think of the US Army as an example) when the uniforms were changed (again!) there was a "wear out date" to allow troops and the supply chain time to get the new equipment. So for the past few years it has been quite possible to see troops standing next to each other in two completely different uniforms as the old uniforms are phased out and new ones phased in.

If I may give an instance from my personal experience: In the 1980s the US military was trading in the old tried and true M1942 "Steel Pot" for the then-new "Kevlar" helmet. The plan was to gradually introduce the new helmet through wear-out of the old helmets. That plan was changed when the 82nd Abn Division got hit with the worst Airborne disaster in the Division's (or US Army's) history in Joint Training Exercise Gallant Eagle 82. Hundreds of troopers were seriously injured (I was one and declared dead at least three times) with six killed due to high winds blowing across the desert as we jumped. The investigation discovered that many of the injuries (including mine) were caused by the age of the World War 2 era helmets causing the webbing to give away and instead of protecting us -actually injured us. The Army made the decision to instead of gradually issuing the new helmet throughout the force to send EVERY Kevlar helmet in inventory to the 82nd to help prevent such injuries in the future.

Flash forward a year or so. In 1983 US troops were ordered to the Island of Grenada to restore order and rescue US medical students who were stuck there during a coup. At that time the only US unit in the entire US military to have the Kevlar helmet were 82nd Division troopers as we were still receiving all of them. The other US troops there, Army Rangers, US Marines, support troops all wore the "steel pot." But if you'll do research on the battle you'll find all sorts of pictures mislabeled. For instance, there's one picture that comes to mind of a "US Marine searches Grenadian House." The picture clearly shows an 82nd trooper with a Kevlar - and an 82nd patch on his arm. There are many more like that. Another picture in a book I have shows "US Army tanks" on the island. The ARMY only had Airborne (Ranger and Paratroop) forces on the island - no tanks. The heaviest thing we had during the battle were the 1 1/4 ton six wheeled "gamma goats" to pull our weapons and haul ammo. Marines had some tanks landed amphibiously in the North of the island. So if a guy is doing research...

So bottom line I guess is it's not always clear cut.

I think it's great that some of the companies listen to our advice and feedback. But there's the old proverb of "too many cooks spoiling the broth..."

I know this is getting long, but I'll close with a story I think of when talking about getting customer input.

There was a painter one time who had a commission to paint the royal family. The king told him if he did a great job of painting a completely accurate portrait of the family he would be richly rewarded. If the painting wasn't accurate...

So the painter went to work. He discovered his job was going to be harder than he thought as each member of the royal family came in and made different demands of THEIR portrait. One wanted to be painted thinner, another more muscular, this one wanted a wart removed, another a mole. This one wanted more hair. All the time the King would check in and demand total accuracy.

When the day came to reveal the portrait the entire family gathered and each reminded the artist of their desire and what would happen if he didn't meet it. So the artist pulled the sheet hiding the painting off and revealed -

an empty canvas.

The entire family was outraged. When the uproar subsided the artist was allowed to explain. He told of the King's demand for total accuracy and then recounted the individual demands and explained there was no way he could please everyone so he left the canvas blank. That way EVERYONE could see what they wanted to see and EVERYONE could be pleased.

The King realized the truth of what the artist said and paid the artist.

Our friends at Strelets have had to make a decision based on their research and it appears it's too late to go back on this set. Will this make a difference in future sets? We'll have to see.

In the meantime we vote with our wallets. I, for one, seeing the beauty of this series am wholly tempted to expand my self-imposed boundaries of collecting to WSS. JMO

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

I enjoyed your recounting of how your 82nd upgraded from the old Steel Pot to the new Kevlar helmets. I read also how WWII tank crews wore early NFL type football helmets inside their tanks to protect them from hard impacts. We know so much more these days about how to protect our heads. Again, fascinating information and thank you!

Re: Don't bite the hand that feeds you

Dear Wayne,

thank you very much for your message, the bit about the helmets was especially interesting.
If you look at this research, it looks as if the new helmets can in certain respects be even inferior to WWI ones!
https://dropmefiles.com/0tRx2

Best regards,

Strelets