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Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Totally agree with Edwardian. Where there's strong historical evidence, there are no doubts. But let's wait and see, maybe I am wrong.

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Under the topic "Strelets - How are your WSS figures doing?", started on 19 November, Strelets posted some shots of new WSS musketeers (Nov 22, 2019, at 12:46AM).

With ventral cartridge boxes, these look suitable for French and Spanish troops.

This is what we need to see if our WSS Brits are not to pine away through loneliness.

It was after this another one of the Problematic Pikemen surfaced, prompting me to question any diversion of effort to a product that didn't seem to fit the WSS or any other Strelets period, and that I simply couldn't understand.

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

I neither understand, those troops you're talking about were awesome and I am convinced they were indeed french. These pikemen instead seem to be absolutely historically wrong.

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

I agree with Edwardian and Alessandro, the pike-figures won´t fit to WSS although their sculpting looks great. It´s a pity, but I prefer certainly to have historical correct figures. And I was also quite surprised to see again a presentation of a new pikeman after our former intensive dialogue on this theme in the forum. And sorry "Mr. Stelets , but your responses were always quite enigmatic, why you have show us these pikemen. It´s better to have more shooting figures as 2-3 pikemen who won´t fit to most of the battles.

Let us hope that some austrians will follow soon ... Prince Eugen need troops too....

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Don't panic. Strelets just seem to struggle with frankly admitting a mistake. :innocent: Never mind! I trust them not to produce a flop and correct their mistake by silently dumping the "WSS"-pikemen. Failing that, they are beyond help ...

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

I recall the thread in question contained some evidence of their use all be it in limited numbers, in the early part of the WSS, although most chose to ignore it

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Hi Alan,I see what you mean and you are perfectly right in asserting that pikes were used in a small number during the WSS. However, you have also correctly said that the pikes were in use until the first years of the war, this means that the set won't cover the most relevant part of the conflict and the wargamers won't be able to use these nice figures in important battles like Malplaquet or Oudenarde.

Best regards,

Ale.

Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

I'm sure Strelets values polite (as opposed to snarky....you know who I mean) criticism.
I think many of us do care about historical accuracy.

I don't have a dog in this fight but let's pretend Strelets' includes a figure that, for whatever reason, you, the consumer, doesn't like. Let's assume it takes up 6 spaces on a box of 44 figures.The other 38 are beautifully modelled, exquisitely posed and totally historically viable.

Here's the earth-shattering solution. Don't use the figures that don't meet your criteria. Plastic 1/72 scale figures cost relatively little. It's a rare box where I use every figure so having 'left overs' is not unusual.

By all means keep this thread going (though if all participants could express their *opinion* with a little decorum & avoid sounding like an overly indulged child it would be a benison) but could we keep things in perspective?

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

Hi Paint Dog, I must admit there's the possibility as you have said that those pikemen will be added in small proportions to a musket box. In this case, the damage would be minimal and we could set aside the wrong figures and use the correct ones.

Best wishes,

Ale.

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

Alessandro
Hi Paint Dog, I must admit there's the possibility as you have said that those pikemen will be added in small proportions to a musket box. In this case, the damage would be minimal and we could set aside the wrong figures and use the correct ones.

Best wishes,

Ale.
Alessandro,

you are the Voice of Reason!

Clearly, if there's a box filled with many figures you don't like, you won't buy it. Neither would I. The preferred outcome would be for Strelets to not use unhistorical figures or, if so, they are a minimal number. At any rate, it is beneficial to be polite about our reactions & criticism.

Buone feste.

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

As you say, politeness and reason are the voice of rational men. I am thankful for what you have said, and that there won't be any other conflict. You have helped me in finding a very probable solution to a problem I couldn't really understand, thanks.

Ti auguro una buona serata :)

Ale

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

Alessandro


Ti auguro una buona serata :)

Ale
Grazie anche a te
(mia moglie è Abruzzese).

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

Immagino allora che tu abbia già esperienza della nostra testardaggine😂, io invece vengo dal Piemonte.

Ciao e alla prossima!

Ale

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

Alessandro
Immagino allora che tu abbia già esperienza della nostra testardaggine😂, io invece vengo dal Piemonte.

Ciao e alla prossima!

Ale
My good wife often calls me a 'testa duro'.

I don't think stubborn is a bad quality.

donald

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

Only a short response: we have seen already 2 pikemen - make already 8 figures in a set of 44 or 45 figures.... and not only 2 or 3! 3 different pikemen makes already 12 of 44! With each pikeman more, the set will been less attractive for many collectors.....
And the argument of some guards seems me weak, which have eventually used pikes still longer for most probably ceremonial uses .... Don´t be surprised, if PSR will give finally the set only some points for historical accuracy....
Strelets should been proud to have such a vivid forum to discuss and avoid mistakes or weaknesses before the figures are entering the market. It´s a treasure and resource which are appreciated from many.....

Re: Stuff this for a game of toy soldiers

With regards to historical accuracy of figures, some people put themselves as a '7'. For some reason, they think their lack of interest in the greatest possible accuracy of historical figures matters more than the expectations of those who think that a manufacturer who claims to produce historical figures should actually deliver historical figures, and not just some fantasy stuff labelled 'historical' at their own sweet will. For flame-war gamers who are satisfied to be a '7', these will be eminently suitable:

http://madonplaymobil.blogspot.com/2018/11/

An *opinion* shoved down my throat

Opinion
With regards to historical accuracy of figures, some people put themselves as a '7'. For some reason, they think their lack of interest in the greatest possible accuracy of historical figures matters more than the expectations of those who think that a manufacturer who claims to produce historical figures should actually deliver historical figures, and not just some fantasy stuff labelled 'historical' at their own sweet will. For flame-war gamers who are satisfied to be a '7', these will be eminently suitable:

http://madonplaymobil.blogspot.com/2018/11/
It's a pity your reading comprehension is so poor. I was very clear in stating I recognise different needs and priorities: not something you do, you intolerant person, you! Anyone who dares to oppose your *opinion* is ridiculed. This hobby is a broad church and just because I don't tow the *Opinion* -party line, you can't be allowed to attack me. I stand up to your harassment just as I oppose your bad manners & churlish behaviour to our host; Strelets.

Given that you have said, in an earlier thread, that you've pursued me from forum to forum in order to "Korrect" my views, would you like me to give you addresses for other forums I frequent so you can harass me there?

You are a TROLL!I believe in standing up to bullies so don't think your awful behaviour here will be unchallenged.

(BTW the playmobil stuff is charming & whilst not really my cup of tea, I'm sure they delight Young & Old. Thank you for the link: they made me smile).

Re: An *opinion* shoved down my throat

I have been staying out of this one - principally because I agree with Paintdog in that the model soldier industry is a broad church, and the people in it have lots of interests.

And I really should learn not to feed the trolls...

However, appropos pikemen, loveable rogues that they, though generally they aren't the sharpest weapon in the armoury you have to feel for them.

Once they were the 'queens of the battlefield', the biggest, strongest guys on the field, they were the lynchpin of the attack and the stone wall of the defence. They were shock and awe, power and glory, a romping stomping war machine - all in one awesome, testosterone driven, dumb as a stump, package.

And then they weren't.

From a two or more pikes to one shot ratio at the start of the 17thC, they were down to a 1:5 by the end, oh how mighty were the fallen. But grim and determined, and battered and bruised, they clung on, until finally someone decided that really, with all of the new shiny toys on the battlefield - plug bayonets, and platoons and rippling vollies of fire, their brand of shock and awe didn't make enough noise, or gives you that lovely feeling in the pit of the stomach that creeps up your spine when a platoon of firelocks cut loose. They just didn't bring anything to the party anymore, so it was decided to take their sticks off them and see if they could be taught which end of a musket was dangerous.

Now the thing about pikes is that for most of the 17thC, during the 80YW, ECW and 30YW they were a feature of the battlefield and a very important one. And visually a properly handled pike block in motion has a grandeur and a purpose that is awesome to watch. Though their role declined after 1685 they were still there, right up unti 1704 (ish).

OK, coming back to the figures, the figure sets released by Strelets are labelled WSS 1701 - 1714, which means that pikes can be used legitimately in early formations, not just by the French but also by the Dutch (who, I believe were quite fond of them). However, these WSS figures could also be used for earlier conflicts under the Grand Alliance where pikes can be used.

Therefore it is my contention that it is more desireable to have these figures produced by the same sculptor and available from the same manufacturer than it is to have to somehow conjure them up later, if the model maker or gamer decides that they are needed. True they have no use for much of the WSS but I am firmly of the opinion that it is better to have these models than not.

Whilst I have been reading up on this period I encountered this book by a chap I know, which I have found to be quite useful. It has a decent number of illustrations, including pikemen from various armies, and I know that Mark works from original paintings and illustrations.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Armies-Enemies-Louis-XIV-1688-1714/dp/1911628054/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2XN91YRQ964XZ&keywords=mark+allen&qid=1575892341&sprefix=Mark+Allen%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-2

Re: An *opinion* shoved down my throat

"Whilst I have been reading up on this period I encountered this book by a chap I know, which I have found to be quite useful. It has a decent number of illustrations, including pikemen from various armies, and I know that Mark works from original paintings and illustrations."

Just post the original paintings and illustrations of pikemen related to the WSS here and everybody will be happy to comment on them.

Your imagined "troll".

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Mr Buckingham- I think you are referring to a post from myself- there is some evidence that the French used pikes throughout the war...

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

I recall some mention of the date the French officially removed pikemen from the establishment, and also recall seeing same in print. 1703?

I am sceptical, however, at the notion that pikes saw active service even at the beginning of the WSS. This is opinion, not fact, but, in the absence of positive evidence of the use of pikes, I consider that any still on strength would have been left in the stores when the armies marched!

And I still have not found a visual match to these breast (and back?) plate wearing figures.

Yes 2-3 of redundant figures in a box (if that is what is in store) is not the end of the world. I simply question whether these figures are worth going into production.

Again, if someone can explain what they are, I would be very happy to be educated on the point.

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Edwardian




Again, if someone can explain what they are, I would be very happy to be educated on the point.



With regards to historical accuracy of figures, I'd put myself as a '7'. It's important but as this is a hobby and you can't always get what you want, I'm prepared to make compromises.

However, I'd be a fool if I didn't recognise others are both more stringent & less discerning in their approach to historicity.

So: the offending pikemen. If I was going to collect a WSS army and I'd agreed these had no place in fact, I'd wouldn't use them but others might & I would not judge them.

Unicuique suum.

I do, BTW, applaud your obvious knowledge & search for the truth.

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

Thank you, and, indeed, I wouldn't criticise anyone for using them as whatever they want. For me they'd be an Imagination unit!

Just questioning the value of producing them. But, if they're produced, they're produced, and the World will keep turning!

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

According to Nosworthy, "The Anatomy of Victory", p.42, Louis XIV introduced the use of socket bayonet in all regiments with a circular of November 11, 1692. Moreover he records at p.43 that Villars was allowed to remove pikes from the Army of Italy from January 16, 1702. However shortage of flintlocks prevented the full elimination of pikes until 1708...

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

The "third" pikeman shown, with pike horizontal. Doesn't he look more like Russian? At least compared to the two previous pikemen shown. Maybe Strelets is also making a further Russian set for the Great Northern War? The Russian army during GNW did use pikes to some extent, at least first half including at Battle of Poltava 1709 (please correct me if I'm wrong!).

Re: Questioning these Pikemen we keep seeing

To clarify the history. All major nations still had pikes at the beginning of the WSS but some of the smaller nations had stopped using them.

The numbers of pikes used varied but was usually between 1 pike to 2 - 5 muskets. The exact ratio is often complicated as it depended on how many grenadiers were used.

The Austrians, and the French in Italy, stopped using pikes in 1702 & so wouldn't have them in 1703.

The French issued a general withdraw in late 1703. Some were still in use in garrison units in 1704 but were soon gone.

The 'British' stopped using them in the field in 1704 but retained them until 1706 elsewhere. It is not known if the 'British' units in the Blenheim campaign had swapped their pikes and so could be with or without pikes - there are arguments either way.

The Dutch issued the order to stop using pikes in late 1708 and withdrew them in early 1709.

Going to other armies of the time the Swedes officially used 1 pike to 2 muskets, but grenadiers were extra to this, until the end of this era. But shortages of pikes meant many low quality/status units had less than this or even none. After 1709 the shortages became more widespread but pikes were still used if available.

The Russians varied the numbers of pikes used during the period and also didn't always use them, although they did when fighting 'Western' foes. It was not until the 1720's that they stopped using pikes.

I have not seen the figures but pikes were used extensively in the early part of the WSS. I would also guess it would be relatively easy to convert the pikes into spontoons/halberds/standard bearers/etc.