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...or, perhaps, prince Eugene's Imperial Army???
Just as a reminder: pikemen were abolished officially in the French army in 1703, and in practice even a few years earlier, it seems. They were still in use during the Nine Years War, but disliked. Can't remember them being used at any time during the WSS.
I think these may be standard-bearers(minus the flags). I'd certainly use them as such. :relaxed:
Cuirassed standard-bearers? And no indication that they are officers?
These have me bamboozled ! no idea.
Hold 'em up to the light, no brain in sight? They're pikemen.
In all honesty I am intrigued also but I am not going to say 'no' to them.
They are french, I presume....
And hopefully flagbearers because the french army didn´t had pikemen after 1700.
I return to my argument that 2 flagbearers per box are personally for me too much. If I buy later 6 and more boxes, I will have 12 flagbearers where I will need only a maximum of 4.
And again my argument, that a set with fighting poses should have a minimum of 2 firing figures and 1 loading figure. I appreciate much the vivid variety of poses of Strelets but some essential poses should been presented more than others.
... and the relation of 3 grenadiers to 7 fusiliers in a set would been more adequate to the historical period
They are not flagbearers. If Strelets claim they are, they are wrong.
A quick - really quick - zip around Google suggests these would work for the United Provinces forces, who DID use pikes, at least until 1707, until which time the English also used them.
Which is good enough for me.
Their pockets make them look French - Swiss in particular. Of course, as others have said, there were no French pike units during the WSS, so there is either a major historical fail here or we are all being bamboozled!
There's an article in an old copy of Wargames Illustrated that I have entitled 'The War of the Grand Alliance Part Seven Foreign Troops in French Service (1)', by Mark Allen.
In it is an image of a pikeman of the Pfyffer regiment with cuirass (and helmet). It has been posted here https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/45/8c/5d458cfccf72d3f41a7c84818ba52d5a.jpg
This lead to finding more images:
I hope that the links work.
As mentioned earlier- these pikemen are all pre-WSS ... So why bring them up?
Si, muy rebuscado, no???
They look similar to these equipment-wise (Maison du Roi French Guards pikemen). Well, at least we now have good figures for the Nine years war!
Also, as the illustration by Rousselot uploaded in the link below (with permission fr. the author of the blog who perhaps is reading this thread)
I do not care for being bamboozled, so it is my opinion that these guys are The Gardes Francaises / or Swiss in French service. If you look you can see in one of the photo`s the tip of what must be a third pike, so not standard bearers, but pikemen , there are probably guys with muskets too, but we have not seen them yet, so for those of you wishing for French troops,you have some I think.
Dear Alan and Nicoalesu,
wonderful figures for the League of Augsburg or as Swiss Guards will been fine, if ordinary french infantry of WSS will still follow. I will need like many others mostly this kind of troops as opponents to the british - and not only special guards which can be a nice add-on, but not the base for many troops....
What's the point of opposing WSS British to League of Augsburg (Nine Years War) French?
Actually, Strelets should dump these French pikemen who are just not suited for the WSS, and try anew.
I agree with you, such mistakes shouldn't be done. What's the point of producing a set completely wrong? That is also what happened to the austro-hungarian honved cavalry, who have the pelz instead of more correct tunics. All of us have said that we are happy to buy french troops, but I personally refuse to buy historical wrong sets. I am so happy instead to buy Marlborough's infantry due to the fact that they seem to be beautifully done, also in terms of historical accuracy.
Just to make sure of one point:
Did Strelets specify these masters were WSS? I may have missed it but to me they never did.
Could this be another era Strelets is intending to cover as announced at the of August?
Have a nice weekend.
You are right, but I agree up to a point. The tricorne wasn't common during the late stages of the XVIIth century, and the uniforms suggest they are for the WSS. Furthermore, it would be silly to start a new period when Strelets have announced that they are starting the production for the War of the Spanish Succession.
Just a note, they could pass as Swedish pikemen for the great northern war too.
Your right, could have sworn I saw some when trying to identify these sculpts, but at least by looking again I am even more convinced that they are indeed French.
I think this link might be of some interest to you. It raises the issue on the possible use of pikes during the early years of the war, especially by Allied forces, even as late as Blenheim and Ramillies, for which there seems to be some evidence of it. From the opinions retrieved there, it is clear that this topic has been debated on endlessly.
As for the figures, I agree with all of you. I would favour a more conventional set of French (thus fully armed w/ muskets, instead of some 1701-03 army variant for Northern Italy).
Interesting, but still, no evidence for French pikemen. Let's assume there had remained a few - somewhere - wherever - in the very early stages of the WSS ... they would still have been marginal and ephemeral. So, just dump them.
I have often said figures need to be correct, but there are some exceptions, like Scots grays at waterloo , no oil skin covers for me, I want them as the film and like the painting Scotland forever. These guys add some extra colour and variation , so however peripheral they may have been I will be buying a few, because they look like they are going to be great fun to paint.
Well, I hope you will not have the opportunity to buy a few of these guys :wink: as, hopefully, Strelets will not insist on producing what's obviously wrong. They have been warned, so let's not encourage them to continue with their mistakes but to bring to a good end what has started well. :slightly_smiling_face:
I agree, just start from removing the pikes
Opinion - you have a very strong - well - opinion. And I get it, you're passionate, you obviously have a deep interest in the subject and, if I may say so, a certain chauvinism.
However, so far no one has come out and said outright that these are French pikemen. Pikes were available to most of the participating armies to some degree at least up until 1703 when they were abandoned in favour of the bayonet.
If I read this thread correctly, people will buy them - if only for completeness or conversions, I personally will have a couple of boxes because a) the rule set I propose to use with these figures The Pikeman's Lament, allows them to be used, and b) there will be more of those excellent officers figures, perhaps one we have not yet see, and c} they will go nicely in my proposed United Provinces contingent.
Interesting debate. As has been pointed out, there hasn't been a designation for these troops. Interestingly enough if you look at the latest box for the British it clearly has the date for the troops but it also has a label noting the troops for The Lace Wars.
The Lace wars ran from the mid 1600s to early 1700s so this may be an indication that Strelets are looking to cover this entire period and not just specifically the WSS. In that case these pikemen would be quite valid and welcome. Obviously as the customer we would like to see opponents for all the periods but we don't have a full picture of Strelets plans in this area so lets be patient and see what unfolds, and appreciate the fact we will be getting to see new periods released.
"The Lace wars ran from the mid 1600s to early 1700s so this may be an indication that Strelets are looking to cover this entire period and not just specifically the WSS. In that case these pikemen would be quite valid and welcome. Obviously as the customer we would like to see opponents for all the periods but we don't have a full picture of Strelets plans in this area so lets be patient and see what unfolds, and appreciate the fact we will be getting to see new periods released."
Well said sir!
Historically, the "lace wars" - "Guerre(s) en dentelles" in French, "Kabinettskriege" in German - run from the mid-1600s to the French Revolution. If Strelets really want to cover all lace wars, I wish them good luck and you a hundred years of patience. And all this besides all the other wars they intend to cover. Sounds like a mammoth project to me. Personally, I don't think they are that arrogant and I doubt they have lost their senses completely. Focussing on one subject at a time is the way to success.
I have "a certain chauvinism"? No, you may not say so.
May I say you have a certain jingoism?
All I move for is historical accuracy and reason.
Me too, definitely with Opinion. The tricorne is clearly for the WSS, and if these guys come out with pikes, I won't buy them. Historical accuracy is important, and I am not a Fantasy wargamer.
You misunderstand, I was referring to what mr. Opinion said. Maybe you don't take into account that there are wargamers that are not so good at conversions (😁). I was only saying that it is stupid to produce a wrong set, why should people buy it to modify it? In this case it would be more rational to buy the zvezda swedes and paint them as french, instead of spending hours in removing the pikes...
Well said, Alessandro.
Ain't it strange to opt for converting figures which, apparently, are still in the process of being sculpted / in the stage of being developed? Why not encourage Strelets to avoid mistakes from the beginning? Weird.
And I'll return to my argument; two standard bearers per box for British units. One where one per battalion or regiment is appropriate
I have been reading the thread and I am curious about the figures.
I know very little of this general period of warfare, so I am interested to find out more.
I stumbled on this book on Amazon - the figure on the left of the book front appears a bit like the Strelets figures.
I do not have the book myself, so I do not know which army the figure represents - perhaps someone on the thread has the book.
(The bottom picture of the Strelets new figures appears to have a 3rd pikeman standing just off to the side with a sloping pike)
Strelets, there has been so much controversial discussion by now, it would be nice if you could comment and clarify matters. Also, the "Survey"-thread you initiated lately was a most curious thing. As if you felt uneasy about having rushed into that WSS adventure ... What are your plans regarding this era?
This just may be the longest thread on this forum for a very long time, and clarity would be good, although it will come in the fullness of time anyway.
Dear mr. Paint dog, I have seen you are a lover of converting, but it doesn't mean that I am a lover of complaint only because I tried to prevent Strelets from making a big mistake. Next time, just avoid writing such answers and respect the thought of everyone. Said so, I suggest to stop this confrontation now.
I don`t think there is confrontation here, just differing views, debate is good , there are no personal attacks or any malice in any of the above, so it is all good faith.
Really? Calling people who just relate facts and recommend avoiding unnecessary mistakes chauvinists, insulting them by insinuating that they prefer complaining to converting (as it happens I'm a fervent converter but still choose converting for fun over converting out of necessity due to the fact that the figures are just crap - in terms of historical accuracy, anatomy or pose), mocking at them on a regular basis and then accuse them of being anxious to make "smug pronouncements" on other people's taste, to jibe at non-native speakers' imperfect English-language skills - well, that's all but no personal attacks or good faith. It's not just bringing forth differing views and debate, it's pure confrontation and malice, indeed. In short, it's trolling.
...and there was me trying to be diplomatic :innocent:
Yes Alan, I agree also with you, but I see that Mr. Opinion was perfectly able to get the point and make things clear once for all.
im more interested in the great turkish war from this time frame,no offense intended.i have a question for those who know more than me,did the habsburg armies use pike formations against the turks?
Opinion, you describe yourself so well. Such self-flattery cannot be good for one.
The Friday teaser was begun by Strelets about a year ago, from memory (I did not go back through the posts to find the first).
These previews from Strelets' workbench were received with interest and joy by visitors to this forum who then 'demanded' that they occur again and again. An 'institution' was born.
Over the many weeks that we have been enjoying this we have seen entire figures and parts of figures, often shown from only a single view so that the subject is not entirely clear. The subject of the preview has been revealed later when further images of the masters or even of the figures have been posted.
May the Friday teaser continue. No other manufacturer does this. Occasional 'preview' photos of entire sets or groups of masters is the closest thing.
I look forward to you starting another in two days Messrs Strelets. A figure from yet another, different period, perhaps?!
Hey guys, I know I don't comment much on here but lets leave the drama off. I listen to a good amount of it on daily basis at work. We all love collecting, gaming, so forth. So lets enjoy the hobby and not let it lead to anger or hurt feelings. Wishing you all the best from the Old North State.
Going back to the original question - I have had a bit of a dig and found this on TMP:
"According to Nosworthy, "The Anatomy of Victory", p.42, Louis XIV introduced the use of socket bayonet in all regiments with a circular of November 11, 1692. Moreover he records at p.43 that Villars was allowed to remove pikes from the Army of Italy from January 16, 1702. However shortage of flintlocks prevented the full elimination of pikes until 1708."
Well done Phil, that should help calm down some of the opinionated view points:-).