I know I will be shot down in flames; but as we have A-sport and B-sport etc in classics why don't we have K-sport for older style clubmans cars with the K series engine and allow a choice of Avon or Dunlop rubber?
I did raise this 18 months ago but it fell on deaf ears.
As the cut off date for Classic is 31st Dec 1980 and the K series wasn't introduced until the 1996 season, it's difficult to see how it would be compatible......
That is like saying that it is difficult to see how 240bhp Protos would be compatable with K series.........................but then I might agree with you!
..by my reckoning there ain't a lot of difference in principle between 190bhp A Class and 110bhp B Class and 240 bhp Proto and 130 bhp Cup cars..it's 10bhp less difference in A/B Classes compared to Proto/Cup Classes [80 plays 90]...what is actually out there is another matter in that the 2011 Nemesis Minister engine is rated at 235 [so equivalent to the last iteration of the VX engine like the one we took out of Alex' Vision and sold...]whereas the original version was 215. The Honda that is due out shortly will be similarly rated/limited while the rebuilt bike engine car will have 185bhp at the wheels..The very essence is that there is room for all of course and a race somewhere to be had...
I was using completely different metrics Phillip!!
I mean the difference of 16 YEARS is incompatible....!!!
Do you mean for all enveloped and another for cars that arent - with mudguards etc in Cup? Because Russell won the championship last year, Barry the year before.. Both without all enveloped bodywork...
Three races this year have been won by cars without it and 4 with it..
Surely no need to divide it up even more when there isnt that much difference
I quite agree Grunt (whoever you are!!!!)
Surely all "cycle mudguard equipped" clubmans cars are "classic" or historic now. And historic motorsport is booming (relatively)
So, one grid for cycle mudguard equipped cars (no Proto engines) & the EBX/ Proto cars to form a class within the BRSCCs "Open Sportscar Series"?
Sven, there are 16 years difference between Maxine (aka team manager) and I..............are you saying we are incompatable!!!!! You are a brave man!!!
Hardly....there's 15 years between Joy and me!!!!!
Mind you, she'd probably say that proves my point.......
Wouldnt it help to have the cut off date at 20 years in classic from the curent year so there is always going to be a number of 'older' cars that are eligble to race in the classics?
But then some cars that now have all enveloped bodywork are around 10 years old, some from the 80's! .......
So whats a classic..
Shouldnt we be trying to keep the clubmans championships together and to bring more cars to the championship, keep the 'clubmans name' moving on for another 45 odd years!
Proto seems to be attracting more people and a number of current cup drivers are looking at going to proto in the future.. So that idea may happen anyway without it being put in writing and moving the cars apart.
But.. currently it also gives people the option who do not have all enveloped bodywork to enter proto. SO moving the cars to BRSCC open sportscar championship would mean any current cup competitors would also have to change there bodywork to all enveloped aswell as buying a new engine, or upgrading the current one.
Dear Heffalump.... if we take the upcoming Rockingham event as an example:
-17 entries in total
-7 Proto including 3 with 'cycles' on
-10 Cup with 6 'cycles' and 4 'envelopes'
Of the 10, 1 is planned to have an envelope and so can be considered to be not a future cycle which means the split is [hypothetically] 5/5.
Now, 5 cars does not make a grid acceptable to anybody, especially the MSA... even if combined with the typical Classic grid this year [see another thread] [and which I know is not necessarily representative of what might be achieved] that would make a grid of 15 - 17 at best..not really helpful in persuading continuity of Championship Status...
We are all Clubmans; envelopes now have 8 years of 'history' within our 47 years and are clearly here to stay; there is room on our grids for all Clubmans cars.
It all depends on what image the Register is trying to portray. In my view the Clubmans "brand" is currently confused - is it a "classic" series or is it a modern series? The actual "Classic Clubmans" series is clearly defined but not the "Cup". It would be clearer if all the cycle winged cars were considered as a "classic" & raced together (no Proto; Vauxhall engined cars allowed in to their own class with original "Vauxhall-Lotus" 190 Bhp spec) whilst the EBX cars raced together separately (inc Proto). Now, the EBX cars do not have enough cars for a grid on their own, hence my view that the category would be well served by having a Clubmans Register supported class within another existing modern sports racer series.
....er, no; we will not be hiving out any part of Clubmans to another place.
Heres a bit of thinking outside the box,at the end of the day we all want to race right? Why dont we all race as one single "Clubmans" formula and have say 4 or 5 classes depending on Car age/horse power etc. Remember at Brans hatch how close Mark Charteris and Paul Gibson were, the same would be for Proto V's A sport and Cup V's B&C sport. Now wouldn't that be fun? This would surely solve the grid size problem in one hit.
I agree with coach n horses, would make good sense!!!
At the and of the day to the layman(Myself included)there will be little or no difference visually between most of the cars on the grid. I personnaly dont give a monkeys what shape your nose is or whether your uprights were forged in 1907. We all want to get out on track and and have a right good ding dong with the car infront or behind regardless of the shape of a bit of fibreglass. I think the racing will be spectacular to watch and listen to with the variety of engines roaring round from the 1600/1800 Rovers,1700 crossflows to the 1300 Busa and 2 ltr vauxhalls. I think it would make for a great race. Imagine being a B Sport putting one over on a K sport or a K sport putting one over on an A sport or an A sport putting one over on a Proto or even a B sport and a Ksport putting one over a proto and a A sport, regarless if you win the race or not it would be incredibly satisfying from the front to the back of the grid. Not to mention what would happen in the wet! Finally it would gel this formula together and make the post race BBQ's wonderful events with stories aplenty about the day s race. Your thoughts please? Is this falling on deaf ears? Do we really fear change that much? No doubt this idea will be shot down in flames and someone will quote regulation 34d subsection ii and give some reason why this is impossible or impractical.
..there are no regulations to throw at your suggestion! In 2012 Clubmans will have a single multi-class Championship [classes as currently exist] which will occur at events where all classes are present. The present intention is to have separate races for the classes as we currently do. Provided that aggregate grid sizes exceed the permitted venue/track maxima then split class races would be required.I believe that your sentiment that 'we are all Clubmans' is the dominant view, it is a matter then of delivering racing that Members want to take part in. Your 'spectacle' point is undeniable, the 'debate' is invaluable!
Despite being slightly depressed at losing an engine after 5 laps of testing on Friday, I still believe, because of the variety of entries and scope for improvisation, this is the most interesting clubmans season for years. There was an extra buzz in seeing Russ beat all the Protos and looking at Adrian's new innovationsthis week-end.
There is no doubt that the unchanged formulas as they were last year were killing us off and the formula libre style of Proto has injected some enthusiasm, interest and more importantly a championshp saving injection to grid numbers.
Please don't change it, just keep on encouraging people to come back to us and keep friendly and open minded.
Thank you Clubmans Committee, you have got it right this year.
Are you the secretary of the BRSCC Open Sports Car Series?
....and why are you remaining incognito. What are you scared of? I think Bantam not heffalump is more fitting...
I agree with Tim.....could all contributors please identify themselves? I'm reluctant to debate such issues unless I know who I'm in conversation with.
Well Onno is his name and the others are well known to most of us......you're not very close to Clubmans are you....????
PS I asked Jamie who you were yesterday and he told me he has no idea......
Heff, you obviously have your own agenda for splitting an already struggling formula up by trying to get rid of the enclosed bodywork cars. Maybe you have a mudgarded car that you want to sell for £20,000. Who knows? Or you have a beef with someone with an enclosed bodywork car? Why don't you just come out of the wardrobe(we dont do closets in the uk)and say who you are? Do you race? Are you a member of the clubmans register? Somehow I doubt it. If you are a member then god help us.
Here, have some kibbled maize.....
Right back to the real point in question. Jamie, as you were saying, next season, the Cup, Classics and Proto will race together when the grid sizes permit and when the races are held at the same circuit? I did read your post but I did nod off after line 3, (sylible overload) Are you going to make sure as many rounds as possible are held at the same circuits? I hope so. I cant wait to mix it up with all the clubmans drivers on and off the track.
Thanks Pete, after today everybody knows my real name is Onno!
Now that i am part of the Clubmans family it's a big dissapointment that Heffalump doesn't know my name after i won my first Proto race, he most have thought my real name is Otto?
Onno - you are very definitely part of the Clubmans family and a winner!!
I called you Oddo for most of the week-end for which I apologise.
You have helped to keep the competition at a high standard in Proto and I really hope we will see you again this season. You are certainly a welcome member of the Clubmans family.
This is actually a very positive thread. I think open i/d would be helpful.. the following may assist:
Tim: 2012 will be a single multi class championship and all championship events/races will occur at the same venues.In other words we will all be together with a great opportunity to socialise as an entire Club etc.
Heffalump: We already have one car that has taken part in OSS - the Jonty Hair driven Yardley/Beagle Mallock MK36A or whatever its proper name is! It was very fast overall [front row I believe]and in relevant class at Donington. However, its rear wing is currently outside our Rules [too far back]and Jonty knows this.Undoubtedly there are several current Protos that could take a good battle to the regular cars in OSS. However, I doubt that the majority of competitors are in a position to compete in 2 Championships and therefore to 'hive out' any part of our current Championship classes to another Championship -no matter what clear synergy/relevance might exist- would not be helpful to our Championship.
The current 'libre' type approach through Proto is clearly re-kindling the engineer/entrant/driver that has been a part of Clubmans history/folklore and creating a 'vive la difference'that is exciting.There is clearly an important need for the approach/structure of the Cup Class. A point is that there are many 'types' of Clubmans cars and we have the space and place for all types to compete. Cars on track is 'win-win'.
I do agree that the 'hidden gem' element is a conundrum but that is in the process of being addressed...
Hi Jamie, thanks for that.
We should not be the hidden Gem in the world of club motorsport we should be returned to "Ace of Clubs".I think we should take a long hard look at the world of short track racing. Every race I have ever been to and 1 i have competed in there is always local advertising. If you have never been to a stock car event you should go and experience the atmosphere of 2000-3000 screaming fans with all the razzmatazz and the action is fantastic (Not to mention the lycra clad babes) Winner parade lap etc etc. Steve and Marcus would vouch for me on that one. If those guys can put in "A show" why cant we? It would not break the bank to put a few lines in the local rag advertising the race and mentioning that this is the most anticipated and exciting season in clubmans history for decades and there is/are local driver/drivers in the race. We could have ppl who have read said advert can get a free cup of tea and sticky ginger cake from someone in the paddock and a tour of the cars and experience the racing from the other side of the fence.Maybe get a sticker pack if they bring their kids. Word of mouth would soon spread. Or to put it in modern term go viral! We could get a guest commentator like Chris Hart has done in the past who can give it some "Trousers on fire " commentating unlike the usually drab commentators we seem to get nowerdays. They will have plenty to talk about given the variety of cars racing together next season.
Just a few suggestions
Anyone got any more?
Good comments Tim on the advertising of events, and it isn't just Ovals. Look at some of the meetings put on at Lydden by TWMC/BARC and by S.E.BARC at Brands, they do a lot of local advertising, radio slots etc and get decent crowds, however all that should really be down to the promoting club and circuit surely and they just don't want to seem to spend the money in that area. One reason I've heard in the past is they have to employ more security guards for "elf 'n safty"
As for the general thread on combined races next year, as a Classics competitor I'm fine with that, if we have to split races then perhaps go down the route of B & C sport classics and K Sport together, and A Sport with Proto should bring closer racing throughout the grid but of course depends on the numbers in each class.
''As for the general thread on combined races next year, as a Classics competitor I'm fine with that, if we have to split races then perhaps go down the route of B & C sport classics and K Sport together, and A Sport with Proto should bring closer racing throughout the grid but of course depends on the numbers in each class.''
Absolutely Haggispeed - I agree that this approach would provide better close racing AND reduce speed differentials and hence result in safer racing.
Haggispeed & Pete, I have been criticised for my posts but fairs fair, I suggested a Proto/ A Sport and K-Sport/ B-Sport split in my post of 4 Jul @ 08:51!
Jamie, I remembered about Jonty's OSS Beagle/ Mallock after I posted; there's also Ginger Marshall's Bowlby and Mark Charteris is racing an A Sport car in amongst the Derek Bell single seaters. I suppose my point has been that the Register could formalise these arrangements & hopefully achieve wider recognition for itself & its own series by promoting/ supporting Clubmans drivers in these series, maybe with a "Clubmans Trophy" that could be awarded to the highest placed Clubmans car in these other events. I don't see this as diluting the Register, more marketing Clubmans cars & racing outside of the the existing clientele.
There must still be a lot of cars sitting in garages & not being used for whatever reason. The more places there are to race, the more likely they are to get used IMO.
If you don't like my ideas then fine, but without any debate or new ideas things tend not to move on until its too late.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Just don't expect us to take them seriously whilst you hide in your anonymity.
Since I have been involved in Clubmans there has been talk of modernising the formula with compulsory all enveloping body work. Has this idea now been put to bed? The EBX, the Gem and the Nemsis all look good but there is still a place for the traditional shape.
Phillip - as long as I've been involved it has never been suggested that all enveloping bodywork should be compulsory - it has always been considered as an option.
PS I won't be changing my car!!!!
After reading all the banter and suggestions being thrown around i thought I would throw a few things into the mix!
1, a-sports are a fully developed bit of kit however proto is still in the early stages, the for whilst the times have been close in recent meetings the potential of proto cars has yet to be realised and now with our cars we are blitzing a-sport times. So let's not get ahead of ourselves in saying a-sport cars will be a competitive race with the top proto cars!
2, I must agree that the classic rules need to be updated to the 20 year rule as the regs at the minute are only to suit a few people and not the whole grid several people with mk23 and later models, visions as so forth who raced in clubmans when I was growing up watching the formula as a youngster are still left out in the cold by a formula they were designed to race in! Any suggestion of putting a proto engine or k engine in and race there is in my view bollocks as they were designed with an a or b sport engine!
3, all enveloping bodies, I firmly believe that all proto cars should be all enveloping and stay as such as it's a major identity for the class however for anyone thinking about going proto but can't afford the engine and a full set of body work I have had an idea that I have been spitballing with a few people over the course of the year! There are serveral mud gaurd Mallock cars that can be converted to all enveloping quite cheaply incomparison to a full body change. Much in the way that the phantom was done by our very own Jaime champkin by replacing the nose for an all enveloping one and replacing the floor for a full width floor! Hopefully mr Mallock will come up with something but if not it is something that I would like to talk to him about as it is something that we are looking into doing as we would like to see more all enveloping cars on the grid!
4, On another note I think it would be beneficial to have a couple of club outings for example a golf weekend with a spa day and the same venue for the women in our lives! They do a he'll of alot in the back ground of our racing and it's about time we gave something back and brought them in a little more! And after the golf and spa treatments a mid season ball much as the classics have been doing! But all of us!
5, in the past we have had driver experience days to blood young ones and give possible drivers a test, this is something we should be doing and I would be more than willing to give up my time as an instructor to help
Much love to all
Hefferlump this one is for you! Jonty is doing all well and good in OSS but after the last few races he has been found wanting! And OSS has some very big cars coming into it next season and without blowing our own trumpets only our nemesis car will be able to push the bigger jades and with the current vedeve cars with full carbon tubs being entered for next season it's going to be exceptionally tough for the current crop of cars to get up the sharp end!
Despite this your coments have detracted from the promotion of this formula which has the opportunity to return to the sharp end of club sports car racing!
So let's work on a formula to achieve our goals and get this formula moving again
Nothing to do with the main drift but Jonty was far from wanting at Snetterton on Sunday in the OSS race,winning his class and 3rd overall. Oh yes and he was ahead of the Nemesis! Who needs rear engines and independant suspension.
The Font of weight reduction has 'spoken'! :)The good commonality here is the forward progress of 'Fronties' as our own revered Catchpole termed 'us'. Much to share and much to celebrate....
As the momentum is now building towards the drivers meeting to decide how the championship(s) are run next year may I request that together with the agenda we have a paper on points on the agenda and, where put forward by the board, their recommendations. I couldn't help but feel that last year decisions had already been made outside the room. We now have Formula Fronties Libre which may be impressive to some but isn't the low cost formula that I thought I had entered!I see that there is no turning back from what has now been done but ask that the "K sport" class be, where possible, be kept to the economical class. To that end could K Sport drivers be allowed to run Avon rubber as an alternative to Dunlop. Frankly the support from Dunlop has been poor for the last two seasons and if Avons are good for Formula 3 they are good for me.
TYRES - I can't see the point of changing. Any avons that are out there and used are too old to be used in 2012. There are many Dunlops out there that have a couple of races left in them. (I have two sets myself) Changing to Avon would be adding costs to 2012 racing, not reducing it.
If we could show a 25 car plus entry, and consistant at that, I think you would find the Tyre support would improve dramatically.
These tyre manufacturers and suppliers are not charities. They aren't interested in supporting people for the fun of it. It's up to register members. Buy tyres and get supported, or don't, and don't.
I wasn't suggesting changing to Dunlops just allowing us slow buggers to use Avons if we wish. I was assured that we wouldn't change to Dunlops three years ago so I didn't attend the drivers meeting only to find that it got changed when I and others rejected it twelve months previously. Our cars always ran on Avons. Classics run on whatever rubber they choose so to think that all 27 cars will run on the same rubber is very unlikely. I am just saying allow us to save money where we can. I did put forward the idea earlier this season that some one (ole Paul Freeman) acted as tyre broker so that us peasants can have your left overs at a sensible price but this was not taken seriously. If you want veryone to run on your high performance rubber you will continue to see the grids dwindle.
Which are quicker? Avon or Dunlop? Obviously, if you want to get a good race, you'll need a quicker tyre. I presume, but don't know, that Dunlop are quicker.
Isn't there also a construction difference, which will favour certain designs?
Someone please enlighten me.
Dunlop are both quicker and more durable.
In return for continuity of supply we have committed to Dunlop to sign up for their exclusive use for 3 years.
We have several sets of dunlop second hand slicks and 2 sets of second hand wets for sale £140 a set of slicks £180 a set of wets
When cup changed from avons to dunlops the times at pembrey alone dropped by around 2 seconds a lap as the have everywhere since the change over
Thanks for that Dan. I wasn't sure.
Well to me it's a no brainer. Dunlop remains the prime tyre and if anyone wants to run Avons, they can do !
I know which I'd rather run.
This means cars sitting in garages fitted with Avon's can now be run in
'The Clubmans Series'.
Almost no cost to get on the track, so long as you've got a car.
Sorry Pete, missed your thread.
Doesn't make much difference really. Dunlop remains the prime tyre and avons can be used if they wish.
You'd be pretty stupid to fit new Avons, but if it gets cars on the grid, then let them run old Avons.
Dunlop should support this as they will sell more tyres as the Avons wear out.
Difficult times need different solutions. The ability to compromise is very important.
I've no idea why you think Avons can be run.
To reiterate - Dunlops are the only approved tyre for Cup/Proto and we will sign a 3 year exclusivity deal with them to ensure continuity of supply.
You are free to raise the possibility of allowing Avons at the Driver's meeting but I'd be very surprised if it gets much support. I'm ready to be proved wrong however!
As for on circuit support - there's little chance of a better deal at the moment - nice big grids would strengthen our negotiating position!!