In case anyone missed it or didn't receive the e mail please be aware of the following;

"You may know that Dunlop are stopping production of race tyres in the UK with immediate effect, and that includes our Sports 1600/Proto specified tyre. Whilst Dunlop have promised to do what they can to make enough available for this year, we do not have guarantees. Pete Richings, Richard Mallock, and others, have been evaluating the options should the Dunlop supply dry-up and we would like to share those options with you at a meeting following the Register's AGM on 22nd February at the Warwick Hilton - details below.

The meeting will take place in the Hatton Suite, Hilton Warwick/Stratford upon Avon, Junction 15 M40, Warwick CV34 6RE from 14.00 - 15.00.

Chris/Pete, Concerning the EGM about tyres, I am interested to understand what the format may be?

1) Are we going to be given a list of choices and then vote on it?
2) Is there going to be a free exchange of ideas and the committee go away and deliberate?
3) Are we going to be told what the committee has looked at and a decision has been made?
4) Some other format?

I only ask this as it will have a bearing on whether I swim up to Warwick or just stay in Bournemouth and accept the decision on the day.

Some other miscellaneous thoughts:-

1) Are we going to try to dovetail our ideas with Classic as that may have an effect on whether Classic cars join Cup races?
2) I was trying to decode Chris Harts last forum entry (item 2), one idea I have seen discussed is idea that 2014 as a free experiment year and allow competitors to buy what they want, Cooper/Avon/Yoko/et al , withdraw lap records and review what happens near the end of 2014. Has that been rejected?
3) Noting Chris’s item 4, I am told by other series that have swapped from Cross Plies to radials that the most significant gain is the ability of cranking more camber on the front of the car, most rear cambers running radials are only one degree negative, had we thought that if we used radials that we could weigh up the IRS cars to disadvantage them?
4) Costs are a concern to me as the current Dunlop set I think is £900, can’t we look at tyres that are cheaper? Sports 2000 sets are £600 and are durable, FF historics (granted not slicks) are £433 plus VAT. I would hate to think that we are using the current price as a target?
5) Have all the potential car manufacturers been consulted, and will you be able to advise us of their input?

Reasonable post Andy and good questions that affect all of us.

One point however -actually made to me by someone close to me who knows far, far more than me about technical matters - is that the IRS cars are already at a significant weight disadvantage so do not need to be 'weighted up' to offset any alleged advantage of radials. the lightest cars on the grid are a pair of solid / beam axle cars -both Mallock as it happens.

In my opinion - and it can be no more than that - it would be rather a sad indictment on the fundament of Clubmans as a place for engineers if we were to allow 'free choice' in 2014 but not permit radials. much could be learned and shared for the good and future of Clubmans.

if we are to be restricted to cross plies then it must be entirely free. we already know that the Dunlop tyre was materially faster (in consistent hands) than other brands. now we are faced with a situation where a few people (no names no pack drill etc) have new sets of Dunlops waiting fitment while others will not have that advantage. the availability of the (brilliant) Dunlop wet tyre is a red herring because of the set-up difference(s) that will be mandated by using a non-Dunlop slick - (not just the ride heights!!).

perhaps 'a' solution -if cross plies it must be- is actually to 'ban' the Dunlop slick and make everybody free choice on another brand. in that way we would genuinely 'level the playing field' if that is a paramount concern.

i feel we have a great opportunity here -albeit forced upon us-to move Clubmans Prototype racing cars forward. the technology exists to run or convert beam axle cars to IRS.

it would be interesting to hear what our manufacturers have to say and also what the tyre manufacturers (as opposed to their agents) have to say. I may well have misheard, but when speaking with the Michelin chief engineer he suggested they could supply a slick that would work with beam axles and IRS - it was however a radial and sadly a bit cheaper than current Dunlops. same goes for Avon I believe.

hey ho, looking forward to a frank and open and informed discussion next week.

Wow, who has bought up all the Dunlop's then?

No decoding necessary Andy, the meeting is (as I stated) to discuss the options available to us - no hidden agendas, no nonsense, just open and sensible sharing of information that will result in the majority agreeing the way forward.

Our information to date is simply that radials need rear camber to work, which disadvantages the majority of our cars. If we thought we'd have a manufacturer producing lots of IRS cars, or if Richard could find a way of inducing camber into solid axle Mallocks, at a reasonable cost, then life would be so much easier at this end of the Forum.

We can legislate a slick tyre that costs £500 for a set if that's what the membership wants. Meanwhile though we've been enjoying a remarkable tyre that heats up in one lap, suits all our cars, and lasts competitively at least twice as long as the £500 ones. If we can't get enough Dunlops for this season I don't want to legislate for a replacement without open discussion - please don't criticise my honest attempt to solve this challenge.

I'd love to hear from others about the radial versus cross-ply discussion, bearing in mind what is best for the majority, and especially the shoe-string budgets.

I write this whilst sitting in our apartment in Sitges (Spain) with the sea lapping at our french(?) window, having endured 20 plus degree sunshine all day. Not that I want to gloat you understand!

Chris, there was no criticism from my part, I was merely trying to understand the process that is on offer (I still do not understand what process is on offer at the EGM so far as tyres go), I read your post and did not fully understand some of the statements.
I would like to further the discussion(s) if I am allowed to?
There, I think, are a lot of statements that I hear trotted out that need challenging:-

1) That cheaper tyres will not last as long as the Dunlops? this in my view is just speculation, how do we know how long tyres will last? Surely it’s mainly due to the compound? If you check with other series they have tyres that are cheaper and seem to last, as far as I know Clubmans is over-tyred for the (Cup) power so this will help all tyres? 750 formula and Sports 2000 use Yoko’s and they appear to last well, of course there are always going to be people with more money that will turn up on the track with new tyres every time, but they would do that with cross ply, radials and wooden tyres.

2) Rear axle cars will not work with Radials? I don’t fully dispute this but has an axle car actually bolted on a set of radials and run a true test? If there are any more cars designed or built for the series in the future (which the Register will need to grow and survive) they surely are unlikely to be axle cars? Mallock’s new car is de Dion, Gem is IRS, Nemesis is IRS the Vision(s) are IRS, Phantoms are de Dion, therefore if you look at pure Cup (1600cc)cars the numbers are probably greater than you realise (discarding Protos and Classic ). Also as Jamie points out most of the non axle cars are much heavier than the axle cars so they already have a disadvantage.

3) It has been said to me that putting radials on an axle, that they will get trashed. My only answer to you is go and ask the Caterham racers, they are in their 100’s and don’t have a problem.
For myself I have both axle and IRS Clubmans cars, I (& Borat) would relish the engineering challenge of trying to get the best out of Radials, I know this is a new situation but it’s forced on us and true Clubman’s racers/engineers would seize the opportunity to advance the series by using a modern tyre not a classic tyre. If our Mk27 did not work with radials so well I would try and engineer a solution, the way I see it is we can’t live in the past we have to sensibly and with caution progress. If we are seen to do this more people will want to race with us.

As Chris has asked I think that more of the Register needs to comment?

You're making it sound as though I'm your headmaster - of course radials are open for discussion that's one of the options being talked about. We only have a hour to focus on the way forward though. Now get back to your desk Langridge A.

Did you have to throw the rubber, Chris?

Andy, you have asked a simple but crucial question:

2) Rear axle cars will not work with Radials? I don’t fully dispute this but has an axle car actually bolted on a set of radials and run a true test?

When we had tyre supply problems after the Kobe earthquake in the mid-90s I recall a hard day's tyre testing at Oulton(?) evaluating Dunlop's proposed alternatives, including radials. Mike Evans and Mike Swinnerton(?)and, I think, Barry Webb, used their live-axle Mallocks (Vauxhall and FF) and there were other cars there representing IRS or deDions.
I don't remember the conclusions, or even if anyone raced with radials subsequently. I will see if I can find a proper report. Unfortunately I'm currently hampered by having my files and records spread across two houses and several sheds and garages and by having the personal mobility of a Dalek so I can't be certain I will find anything. If anyone else can shed light on the conclusions of that test day it would help to answer Andy's question.

Mike

Thanks Mike, hope that you are not talking like a Dalek. You may not know this but Borat has a morbid fear of sharks and daleks.

Mike and others..

We moved to Dunlop radials (Radical/F3 spec) in 2013 and they are fantastic. A faster tyre, which lasts as long and suits an aero car - no more hero driving with the tail out!

What I can tell you is that they will not work with a solid axle. We had to put in 2.5-3 deg camber at the front and 2 deg at the rear. The more they grip the more camber you need. The Dunlops are run at up to 6 deg on F3 cars.

It is not just the Solid axle issue that needs to be considered, it is the ability of all the cars to get the required amount of camber which is a lot more than on a cross ply - we had to modify our front wishbones to get the required camber.

Don't forget the change in diameter as well....

Happy engineering....

I am confused Jonty... if we engineer our cars properly, we can use a modern tyre construction and .... they go faster?

Jonty, I think that it is universally recognised that radials need more camber than cross plies, however I think there is a bigger question here, now that the Dunlop cross ply is not available and I presume that other tyre manufacturers will gradually not want to make them (as their numbers will be less than radials) other than historic tyre suppliers. Do we stay with a tyre that most modern series do not use, suffer the rising costs of such a scenario or do we make a bold move and grasp the future?

Chris, I may be stating the obvious here but the axle brigade will want cross plies and the IRS/De Dion Brigade will want radials. If it goes for a vote and the people that vote are racers, then the majority car type will win, in other words the “axles” will form a majority vote for cross plies (depending who is allowed to vote). However as new cars are designed (let’s hope there will be some) it is more than likely that they will be IRS/De Dion so in the future my Darwinian prediction is that eventually Clubman’s will use radials. It’s only going to be a matter of when?

I think everybody knows my views and I own and love both types of cars, I do not fear running radials on my Mallock, if they did not work I would try to engineer a De Dion or more likely an IRS probably based on the Caterham CSR rear end. Why, because motorsport should evolve and not be stuck in the past, if we want to attract new engineering-drivers we have to use modern building blocks, not adjust the rules so that a 30+ year old design of car can still win, in my opinion this is a retrograde step and fundamentally wrong (unless we are another classic series) for what should be a series encouraging design and engineering. It does in my opinion send out all the wrong signals.

So there it is, fear of un-competiveness will drive the decision, so why not allow free choice for 2014 and see what results we get on the track, the ultimate test? Allow us to pick any tyres that we want and then compare results, you never know you might be surprised?

The tyres Jonty used are wider than the Clubmans crosply tyres so no discussion they are better/faster. These tyres would be far to wide for the CUP cars and would destroy the balance in those cars, yes smaller radials would be an option but would they fit the rims?
In Formula Ford the Dulop radials were not faster than the AVON crosply's, the Duratec engine had more power and was lighter but was no more than a second faster than the old FF zetec with the AVON crosply's so i think the discussion should not be wich tyre but what size with both options.
I think there wil be a good solution for both and i don't think radials are cheaper than crosply's. Also there are loads of classic series wich use crosply's so no reason to stop with these because Dunlop stops their production.

And even that isn't sure as far as i understand the message well.

Did you check the Yokohama site on that?

Onno, no I called Polley Motorsport the UK agent

Okay, i found some data of these tyres on the net and seems like they offer tyres wich suit both CUP and PROTO.
I wouldn't mind if both radial and crosply would be accepted but think there should be a maximum tyre size for both CUP and PROTO.
Wish you all a good meeting saturday!

There you are (axle) guys all designed for you, just get you welding rods out:-

Onno, you have made rational postings here. what do you say the maximum sizes of the relevant tyres should be?

Great viewpoints, and an open minded exchange too. I’m with those encouraging engineering input and also feel the switch is inevitable. However adopting radials risks fundamental chassis change for a large number of us assuming results of radials on a non-cambered axle confirm non competitiveness. By comparison an engine change is straightforward. Presently the mitigating factor looks like the duration over which a switch to radials, if that is the view on Saturday, is implemented. The longer the better.

Having spent significant effort over the last few years, including major chassis surgery to fit a ‘flexible’ BMC axle in a cage with its geometry dictated by cross plys, sticking with these tyres would suit me but it’s not pushing the formula forward. Nothing is impossible and to me the rigid axle format still has miles left in it but needs a rethink to suit radials, personally I see this as an opportunity. I’d love to be there on Saturday but am not available, however, whichever way it goes I’m looking forward to getting on with it, good luck.

Brendan

Jamie; looking at the Yokohama's
The rear tyres are 205 and 240 wide, 240 fit's a 10 inch rim but would be to wide for a 130 BHP CUP car but ideal for a Proto.
The 205 fit's a 9 inch rim and is ideal size for CUP cars.
I think both crosply and radial could work together if they have the same size, so if you allow Yokohama's or other radials with a max wide of 210 (Dunlops) it could work as long as the Dunlops are being delivered.
Otherwise the AVON crosply's could be an option.
Be aware that extra soft tyres can't be accepted as it would destroy the idea that tyres should be cheaper.

It's a shame the Bridgestones are out of production since the tsunami, they were even better than the Dunlops with the same size. AVON's are 2 sec of the pace compared with Bridgestone at Zandvoort.